Jeffries vs Foreman

[JAB5239]

OK!

So then you are a Jeffries --> Hart --> Burns --> Johnson, supporter.

I guess you can say that. I believe in the lineal process of the man who beats the man. When the champ retires the two best contenders fight to start a new lineal process. That doesnt mean the best fighter is always the lineal champion though either. When Briggs beat Foreman he became the lineal champion, but he probably wasn't in the top 5 fighters at that time. But there is always a process and I believe the way I see it is the most reasonable.

[Bronson66]

I agree but Ali did formally retire.

I still thought him the (lienal) champion at the time.

To me, Frazier was never going to be complete until he beat Ali.

The temperament of the day said Johnson was never going to be 'complete' until he beat Jeffries.

The Whites were not going to have it any other way. As I said before, they made JJ win the title twice; they did him dirty.

But this is why I say Jeffries was thought of as the lineal champion (for lack of a better word).

Just my take on it. It is definitely open to interpretation.

Thought of as lineal champion by the white racists,no heavyweight champion had retired undefeated.
When you retire, any championship claim you had retires with you.
Hence ,Hart,Burns,Schmeling,Sharkey , Walcott,etc were bona fide champions.

[Bronson66]

Hard to even be a swarmer back then... You would get grappled. Where as with the advent of the style popularized by Dempsey, you were on average about one stance length, or less, from the opponent, and your weight could well be forwards. In the preclassical style you had weight usually tending towards the back leg, and alot of your set up was to get into range, shoot your punch, after which you would come to some variation of gripes upon each other...

This is one of a few reasons it is hard to impress on others how a fighter from Jeffries' generation could be so skillful when the fighting looks byzantine lol. A lot of the skill was the set up to land one punch at the proper range, along with tricks to hit in the grapple.

I'd call Tom Sharkey a swarmer.

[Bronson66]

- - Jeff already beat or otherwise KOed black fighters who beat JJ and otherwise gave JJ a hard time.

There is no hard consensus as to what constitutes Lineal, ie no Lineal Org, so when Jeff rematched Griffin, a group could claim Griffin the Lineal Champ.

Johnson was never lineal until he beat 6 yrs retired Jeff, a criminal obscenity if the Lineal Boxing Loons weren't so ******, the current dumerest sport in the world...

When Jeffries retired ,the 4 best black heavyweights were.Johnson,McVey,Childs,Martin. Jeffries fought none of them,and only later challenged Johnson because Jack was now the champion.
Johnson in contrast ,fought Martin x2Childs x2,and McVey x3.

Jeffries certainly did not think himself still the champion in 1910,if he had done, he would never have risked a fight with Johnson.
" I am coming back to reclaim the title for the White Race."Jeffries.

[Dr. Z]

The lineal championship is restarted when the top 2 contenders meet for the championship after said champion has retired. This is why Fury never lost his lineal title during his 3 year hiatus. The top two fighters never fought during that period. It's why there was no lineal champion after Lewis until Wlad beat Chageav.

He would have if he did not fight for six years....someone else who would be the lineal champion. In such times when the title is vacant due to a retirement, the #1 and #2 man, or as ring ****zine defines it, sometimes a #1 vs #3 man fight for the vacant title.

Unless the former lineal champion who never lost it in the ring comes back out of retirement.

See J Jeffries or Jack Johnson / Marvin Hart.

[Bronson66]

He would have if he did not fight for six years....someone else who would be the lineal champion. In such times when the title is vacant due to a retirement, the #1 and #2 man, or as ring ****zine defines it, sometimes a #1 vs #3 man fight for the vacant title.

Unless the former lineal champion who never lost it in the ring comes back out of retirement.

See J Jeffries or Jack Johnson / Marvin Hart.

"I am coming back to RECLAIM the title for the White Race."Jim Jeffries

[Dr. Z]

"I am coming back to RECLAIM the title for the White Race."Jim Jeffries

The MONEY is the real reason for his 6 year off comeback.

Lennox Lewis would have fought Vitali Klitschko as he says if he was offered 50 million!

What a fighter say before and what he does for MONEY often changes.

[Bronson66]

The MONEY is the real reason for his 6 year off comeback.

Lennox Lewis would have fought Vitali Klitschko as he says if he was offered 50 million!

What a fighter say before and what he does for MONEY often changes.

I have already proven that Jeffries turned down more lucrative , guaranteed offers to fight Martin and McVey,and instead opted to fight Finnegan and Munroe for considerably less money.

As he himself stated unequivocally,many, many times Jeffries would NEVER take a chance on defending his title against a black man,in case he should lose it.
Jeffries came back because he no longer had a title to lose!

That's why in his pre championship days he had no objection to fighting Griffin and Armstrong.
Once Champion he would never have fought Griffin in defence of his title,instead he only boxed a 4 round exhibition with him.


An exhibition by the way that,under the terms agreed by both parties Jeffries LOST!

Jeffries had undertaken to stop Griffin inside the 4 rounds the fight was staged at stake was a $100 forfeit .Jeffries failed to stop Griffin and paid the forfeit. So,should Griffin have been crowned the new Champion?

Can you not see the absurdity of your position?

Show me anywhere that the Griffin 4 rd exhibition was ever recognized as a title defence.

Not bv CBZ . Not by Box Rec Not by Wikipedia. And Not in Pollack's biography of Jeffries!

InJeffries 4 rds exhibition with Jack Munroe the referee stated Munroe was the better man,so,according to you, he should have been proclaimed as the Champion!
Your position on this is totally ludicrous!
This is all not just opinion ,or a point of view ,it is a matter of STONE COLD PROVEN FACTS,that everyone acknowledges except YOU!

[Dr. Z]

I have already proven that Jeffries turned down more lucrative , guaranteed offers to fight Martin and McVey,and instead opted to fight Finnegan and Munroe for considerably less money. As he himself stated unequivocally,many, many times Jeffries would NEVER take a chance on defending his title against a black man,in case he should lose it. Jeffries came back because he no longer had a title to lose!Thats why in his pre championship days he had no objection to fighting Griffin and Armstrong champion would not have fought Griffin in defence of his title,instead he only boxed a 4 round exhibition with him.
Show me any where that the Griffin4 rd exhibition was ever billed as a heavyweight title defence?
This is al not opinion ,or a point of view ,it is a matter of a STONE COLD PROVEN FACT,that everyone acknowledges except YOU!

You did not prove that Jeffies received more money vs. Martin or McVey than his title defense vs Fitz and Corbett! He did not. Not even close to these " newspaper offers "

Okay so he made little vs. Finnegan for a title defense. Would you rather see Jeffries fight a teenaged Sam McVey? Jeff has a recorded KO over Martian and Childs in the 1890's according to the newspapers. Do you believe that? Of course you don't, it would hinder your agenda.

And do not forget my friend with a perpetual ax to grind that a newspaper offer is not a not the real offer nor is it how much he would make. There is a process for negotiations. The live gate was the main source of income for a fighter in those years not an offer in the press beforehand. Got it now?

And those are the facts. Now quickly ignore the facts and change my talking points as usual.

I am busy these days, so It might take me a while to reply on some days.

[JAB5239]

He would have if he did not fight for six years....someone else who would be the lineal champion. In such times when the title is vacant due to a retirement, the #1 and #2 man, or as ring ****zine defines it, sometimes a #1 vs #3 man fight for the vacant title.

Unless the former lineal champion who never lost it in the ring comes back out of retirement.

See J Jeffries or Jack Johnson / Marvin Hart.

This is a crock of ****, sorry. So you're saying a former champion automatically reverts to being lineal champion if he comes out of retirement after the top 2 fighters have already started a new lineage? Ridiculous. That means Lennox Lewis could come out of retirement today and he'd be the champ, and Usyk would lose that recognition because Lewis never lost his title in the ring when he retired. That doesn't sound totally absurd to you? If it does than you can't change the rules for Jeffries.