Jeffries vs Foreman

[Dr. Z]

First off, triangle theories have never worked. Styles make fights. Vits lost to Byrd but Wlad handled him with ease. Wlad was ko'd by Sanders, but Vits ko'd Sanders.

Second, Griffin vs Jeff was not a championship fight by any means. It was a 4 round exhibition. That would be like saying if Joe Louis fought a four round exhibition during WWII that his lineal title would go to the other fighter had he lost. How many championship fights, lineal or otherwise have been scheduled for four rounds?

Third.....do you realize how ridiculous you sound saying "there is no hard consensus as to what constitues lineal" and then in the next breath claim "Johnson was not lineal until he beat the 6 years retired Jeff"?

The fact is, once the top two contenders for the heavyweight championship squared off Jeffries no longer had a claim to any title, lineal or otherwise. Like I said to Z, if you believe this you have to believe Lennox Lewis is still the lineal champion since he retired that way and never came back. You can't have it both ways.

Lewis did not fight again with his lineal championship still in tact. Much like Tunnny and Marciano, Lewis is taking his title to the grave. If Lewis wanted to come back, he fights with the lineal title on the line.

[Willie Pep 229]

First off, triangle theories have never worked. Styles make fights. Vits lost to Byrd but Wlad handled him with ease. Wlad was ko'd by Sanders, but Vits ko'd Sanders.

Second, Griffin vs Jeff was not a championship fight by any means. It was a 4 round exhibition. That would be like saying if Joe Louis fought a four round exhibition during WWII that his lineal title would go to the other fighter had he lost. How many championship fights, lineal or otherwise have been scheduled for four rounds?

Third.....do you realize how ridiculous you sound saying "there is no hard consensus as to what constitues lineal" and then in the next breath claim "Johnson was not lineal until he beat the 6 years retired Jeff"?

The fact is, once the top two contenders for the heavyweight championship squared off Jeffries no longer had a claim to any title, lineal or otherwise. Like I said to Z, if you believe this you have to believe Lennox Lewis is still the lineal champion since he retired that way and never came back. You can't have it both ways.

I challenge you thesis.

Whom do you believe was "champion" when Frazier-Ali met in '71? -- Who was the "lineal champion"? Were they the same or different?

There is a consensus as to what the lineal title is, but paradoxically that consensus changes with each set of (new) circumstances presented.

It is not something that is open to historical interpretation but instead must be evaluated by evaluating the opinions of the contemporaneous generation. Really not our call to make. We need to listen to what they said.

[JAB5239]

I challenge you thesis.

Whom do you believe was "champion" when Frazier-Ali met in '71? -- Who was the "lineal champion"? Were they the same or different?

There is a consensus as to what the lineal title is, but paradoxically that consensus changes with each set of (new) circumstances presented.

It is not something that is open to historical interpretation but instead must be evaluated by evaluating the opinions of the contemporaneous generation. Really not our call to make. We need to listen to what they said.

I believe Ali was the lineal champion when he met Frazier. The difference being he didn't retire, he was unjustly stripped and forced out. Jeffries on the other hand made the conscious decision to retire and let the championship go.

[JAB5239]

Lewis did not fight again with his lineal championship still in tact. Much like Tunnny and Marciano, Lewis is taking his title to the grave. If Lewis wanted to come back, he fights with the lineal title on the line.

The lineal championship is restarted when the top 2 contenders meet for the championship after said champion has retired. This is why Fury never lost his lineal title during his 3 year hiatus. The top two fighters never fought during that period. It's why there was no lineal champion after Lewis until Wlad beat Chageav.

[BKM-]

I wouldn't classify Jeffries as a swarmer,certainly not in the 1st Corbett,2nd Fitz, and both Sharkey fights.

I can see how my post made it sound like he's a swarmer which I don't believe he is either. Morte importantly, I am trying to figure out what would happen in a fight where Foreman can't move his man backwards in order to implement his style or worse, he is the one who gets outgrappled. Maybe Jeffries is not the one, there are certainly arguments for that.

How about the man we actually witnessed outgrapple Jeffries and had a skillset that could make the difference? Jack Johnson vs George Foreman. The immovable wall vs the unstoppable force.

[Willie Pep 229]

I believe Ali was the lineal champion when he met Frazier. The difference being he didn't retire, he was unjustly stripped and forced out. Jeffries on the other hand made the conscious decision to retire and let the championship go.

I agree but Ali did formally retire.

I still thought him the (lienal) champion at the time.

To me, Frazier was never going to be complete until he beat Ali.

The temperament of the day said Johnson was never going to be 'complete' until he beat Jeffries.

The Whites were not going to have it any other way. As I said before, they made JJ win the title twice; they did him dirty.

But this is why I say Jeffries was thought of as the lineal champion (for lack of a better word).

Just my take on it. It is definitely open to interpretation.

[Willie Pep 229]

The lineal championship is restarted when the top 2 contenders meet for the championship after said champion has retired. This is why Fury never lost his lineal title during his 3 year hiatus. The top two fighters never fought during that period. It's why there was no lineal champion after Lewis until Wlad beat Chageav.

I understand your point, but take that argument back to Jeffries and what have you got?

We have on record, Jeffries saying both sides of the issue just days apart. First he said it was Hart, then he said it wasn't Hart ?????

It is always hazy.

[Willie Pep 229]

I can see how my post made it sound like he's a swarmer which I don't believe he is either. Morte importantly, I am trying to figure out what would happen in a fight where Foreman can't move his man backwards in order to implement his style or worse, he is the one who gets outgrappled. Maybe Jeffries is not the one, there are certainly arguments for that.

How about the man we actually witnessed outgrapple Jeffries and had a skillset that could make the difference? Jack Johnson vs George Foreman. The immovable wall vs the unstoppable force.

We have training footage of Jeffries practicing and honing his grappling skills.

[JAB5239]

I understand your point, but take that argument back to Jeffries and what have you got?

We have on record, Jeffries saying both sides of the issue just days apart. First he said it was Hart, then he said it wasn't Hart ?????

It is always hazy.

Ok, but just because he said it, then changed his mind means nothing. The fact that what were seen as the two best contenders decided it. Jeff has as much say declaring anyone the lineal champion as Usyk would have today if he decided to retire and declare a new lineal champion on his word. The two best contenders fight for that honor.

[Willie Pep 229]

Ok, but just because he said it, then changed his mind means nothing. The fact that what were seen as the two best contenders decided it. Jeff has as much say declaring anyone the lineal champion as Usyk would have today if he decided to retire and declare a new lineal champion on his word. The two best contenders fight for that honor.

OK!

So then you are a Jeffries --> Hart --> Burns --> Johnson, supporter.