Prime Liston rate him HTH

[Anomalocaris]

I would certainly put him in the top 10, I wonder about top 5.

He is undoubtedly the most underrated heavy in history amongst casuals who only know him from that ****ing awful poster.

I actually think a prime Sonny was utterly lethal.

[Biledriver]

I would certainly put him in the top 10, I wonder about top 5.

He is undoubtedly the most underrated heavy in history amongst casuals who only know him from that ****ing awful poster.

I actually think a prime Sonny was utterly lethal.

Top-10 easily. I don't have him top-5, but that's a hard company to break into. Muhammed Ali, Joe Louis, Larry Holmes, and Jack Johnson are locks in my opinion. Who get's the 5th? Liston? George Foreman? Jack Dempsey? Lennox Lewis? I haven't made any lists in about 16-17 years I'm not sure how I'd fill that last top-5 slot. But I can't see any way Sonny doesn't crack a top-10 list and I'm automatically dubious of any list that leaves him out.

[Anomalocaris]

I actually hate HTH listing the past amongst the heavies.

But Iove prime Sonny.

A beautIful, technical boxer with a battering ram of a jab, appalling power in both hands and a chin and face of stone.

[Anomalocaris]

Before Ali of course he was
known as 'Old Stone Face'.

Perfect.

[billeau2]

Sony at his best? Might be the best. I rate him top five where "winning" is always a crap shoot under real conditions... Conditions where (as scrooge said) "an undigested bit of beef might cause problems!," much less a bad camp, an injury, a bad day, etc... I mean Sony stressed to the gills, older against Ali... Etc, etc. However when we look at the composite skills of a great fighter, a heavyweight, and a willful individual Liston checks all the boxes in spades.

[Anomalocaris]

Sony at his best? Might be the best. I rate him top five where "winning" is always a crap shoot under real conditions... Conditions where (as scrooge said) "an undigested bit of beef might cause problems!," much less a bad camp, an injury, a bad day, etc... I mean Sony stressed to the gills, older against Ali... Etc, etc. However when we look at the composite skills of a great fighter, a heavyweight, and a willful individual Liston checks all the boxes in spades.

A wonderful post and spot on.

[Mr Mitts]

I will reply directly to the question.

The criterion with me is always who I think beats whom, unless otherwise instructed by the author. This makes it all individual matchups but does not decide who is greatest. Louis is obviously a greater champ than Sonny, but I have him losing to Liston vis a vis. When I count 'em up, betting my own money, on all of their best nights, I would make him a favorite over everyone but:

Ali
Foreman?
Johnson?
Dempsey?
Tyson?
Holmes?

This means he could actually be as high as #2 AT HW--who beats whom. I hate to rank him that high because he did not exactly prove it. A lot of speculation and extrapolation is involved with Sonny, even more so than usual.

He did not prove it because he only fought one ATG who just happened to be #1 AT HW GOAT. But like Bill explained, he walked right through a field of what must be termed excellent fighters on his way up, proving he could deal with a variety of styles delivered by better than good but less than near great fighters.

I keep him exactly as he was for all matchups, as I do for all the fighters. No changing training methods, diets, adding fictional weight, etc. etc. etc. It is Liston exactly as he was vs X, and the same goes for X.

Bill, I said he didn't prove it, and he didn't, but I have to bet my own money here! I can't even make Lewis or Louis favorites with their thin beards. So it appears I almost certainly do rate him Top 5 HTH without even having realized it.

One box he didn't check to satisfaction is heart. But even without much heart he would destroy all but a single handful of HW champs anyway IMO.

If all the heavyweight champs lived in one era together, just as they were at their best in their own era, methinks Liston would hardly ever lose. To my own surprise, I now think I would be stretching it not to have him Top 5!

Another box he never checked legibly was stamina--so many short fights--which x factor could bring guys like Holyfield and Frazier onto the list too HTH.

[them_apples]

The reason people overate Liston is because

1: he has a superb skill set for a man his size

2: he is physically very strong

3: he is gifted with a very long reach

4: he seemingly has no real weaknesses, even his chin is good

So long story short he is actually better than most heavyweights.....

Why is he overated?

Because Mentally he's not a hard man, just like Tyson. If you look through him he'll fall apart. He doesn't believe in himself. If he thinks someone is on to him, he'll beat himself

[Bronson66]

The reason people overate Liston is because

1: he has a superb skill set for a man his size

2: he is physically very strong

3: he is gifted with a very long reach

4: he seemingly has no real weaknesses, even his chin is good

So long story short he is actually better than most heavyweights.....

Why is he overated?

Because Mentally he's not a hard man, just like Tyson. If you look through him he'll fall apart. He doesn't believe in himself. If he thinks someone is on to him, he'll beat himself

Lazy BS.Liston proved his hard mentality by fighting on with a broken jaw,and continuing in another fight with a broken nose.

[shawnkemp804]

I would certainly put him in the top 10, I wonder about top 5.

He is undoubtedly the most underrated heavy in history amongst casuals who only know him from that ****ing awful poster.

I actually think a prime Sonny was utterly lethal.

Yeah head to head Sonny LIston is the greatest heavyweight of all time because he beat 180 pound Floyd Patterson. Sure in his prime he got his jaw broke and lost to 180 pound Marty Marshall. Sure in his prime 5 straight people went the distance with him and 3 of those guys were sub 200 pounds. But since the 210 pound Sonny Liston beat the 180 pound Floyd Patterson it means Sonny Liston was unbeatable. Brillant logic there kid.