Prime Liston rate him HTH

[shawnkemp804]

I will reply directly to the question.

The criterion with me is always who I think beats whom, unless otherwise instructed by the author. This makes it all individual matchups but does not decide who is greatest. Louis is obviously a greater champ than Sonny, but I have him losing to Liston vis a vis. When I count 'em up, betting my own money, on all of their best nights, I would make him a favorite over everyone but:

Ali
Foreman?
Johnson?
Dempsey?
Tyson?
Holmes?

This means he could actually be as high as #2 AT HW--who beats whom. I hate to rank him that high because he did not exactly prove it. A lot of speculation and extrapolation is involved with Sonny, even more so than usual.

He did not prove it because he only fought one ATG who just happened to be #1 AT HW GOAT. But like Bill explained, he walked right through a field of what must be termed excellent fighters on his way up, proving he could deal with a variety of styles delivered by better than good but less than near great fighters.

I keep him exactly as he was for all matchups, as I do for all the fighters. No changing training methods, diets, adding fictional weight, etc. etc. etc. It is Liston exactly as he was vs X, and the same goes for X.

Bill, I said he didn't prove it, and he didn't, but I have to bet my own money here! I can't even make Lewis or Louis favorites with their thin beards. So it appears I almost certainly do rate him Top 5 HTH without even having realized it.

One box he didn't check to satisfaction is heart. But even without much heart he would destroy all but a single handful of HW champs anyway IMO.

If all the heavyweight champs lived in one era together, just as they were at their best in their own era, methinks Liston would hardly ever lose. To my own surprise, I now think I would be stretching it not to have him Top 5!

Another box he never checked legibly was stamina--so many short fights--which x factor could bring guys like Holyfield and Frazier onto the list too HTH.

There should be a grown person part of this forum and a little kids section of the forum for people like you. Liston beat who? The guys Liston beat weren't heavyweights by modern standards and they weren't even considered good for their size. Liston beat a bunch of nobodies and now pretend boxing fans like you think it means he was a top 5 fighter? Why? Because you heard somebody on TV say it? Lol then you say you don't think Lennox Lewis could hand Liston's power? Lewis was dropped twice in his career. Both 2 guys way bigger than Liston and guys who fought in a way better era than Liston did. Liston fought 180 pound Marty Marshall 3 times and Marshall went the distance 2 of those times. In Liston's prime 5 straight guys went the distance with him at one point. Liston's power is overrated based off him beating 180 pound Floyd Patterson.

Liston himself was knocked out stiff by 190 pound Leotis Martin. I know what you will say but Liston was old. Hell Foreman fought until he was pushing 50 and fighting guys much bigger and better than Martin and wasn't knocked down on his comeback. Liston wasn't that tough. He looked tough when he was facing 180 pound guys.

Liston is no where close to being even in the top 100 ATG heavyweights. Beating a 180 pound Patterson is suppose to be impressive? Lol you think David Tua, Mike Tyson, Ike Ibeabuchi, Tommy Morrison, George Foreman, Lennox Lewis, etc wouldn't of destroyed 180 pound Floyd Patterson. I cant even imagine Liston beating a guy like Charles Martin for crying out loud. Martin is bad but he is a modern sized heavyweight modern sized heavyweights. It is funny how people like you love to exaggerate older fighters because you heard somebody on TV say they were good.

Liston didn't beat top level modern sized heavyweights. Liston fought in a era where most heavyweights were smaller. His best win was over a 180 pound Floyd Patterson. That is nothing to get excited over.

[billeau2]

The reason people overate Liston is because

1: he has a superb skill set for a man his size

2: he is physically very strong

3: he is gifted with a very long reach

4: he seemingly has no real weaknesses, even his chin is good

So long story short he is actually better than most heavyweights.....

Why is he overated?

Because Mentally he's not a hard man, just like Tyson. If you look through him he'll fall apart. He doesn't believe in himself. If he thinks someone is on to him, he'll beat himself

Love your posts but really disagree with you on Sonny. You're right about a bully, but sunny was a lot tougher than Mike Tyson lol. He grew up extremely hard and I don't like to use the Ali fight as a gauge because he was really in a bad way and very very old at that point. Yes he probably could be broken given that psychological profile but so can diamond lol.

[Anomalocaris]

Yeah head to head Sonny LIston is the greatest heavyweight of all time because he beat 180 pound Floyd Patterson. Sure in his prime he got his jaw broke and lost to 180 pound Marty Marshall. Sure in his prime 5 straight people went the distance with him and 3 of those guys were sub 200 pounds. But since the 210 pound Sonny Liston beat the 180 pound Floyd Patterson it means Sonny Liston was unbeatable. Brillant logic there kid.

Go troll somewhere else you utter fool, you are more transparent than a window.

[billeau2]

Lazy BS.Liston proved his hard mentality by fighting on with a broken jaw,and continuing in another fight with a broken nose.

If I may dovetail off this post, Let's talk sociology here. A lot of our conditioning comes from our environment though not the most important aspects that make us truly human like language but that's another topic lol.

Urban poverty in a developed country is really not so bad. Mike Tyson grew up with subsidized services, he got an education of sorts, he grew up in a community that had access to goods and services, etc.

Sonny? Grew up in a backwater sharecropping community with nothing. Like 12 siblings or so, a father who beat him constantly, nothing. Real poverty, no education, the kind of poverty someone like Manny Pacquiao dealt with. I think this makes a big difference in toughness. I don't think personally that one can compare Tyson too liston but that's just me. Sonny was just a lot more capable of not being broken. And I do think this would affect them in the ring.

[Bronson66]

If I may dovetail off this post, Let's talk sociology here. A lot of our conditioning comes from our environment though not the most important aspects that make us truly human like language but that's another topic lol.

Urban poverty in a developed country is really not so bad. Mike Tyson grew up with subsidized services, he got an education of sorts, he grew up in a community that had access to goods and services, etc.

Sonny? Grew up in a backwater sharecropping community with nothing. Like 12 siblings or so, a father who beat him constantly, nothing. Real poverty, no education, the kind of poverty someone like Manny Pacquiao dealt with. I think this makes a big difference in toughness. I don't think personally that one can compare Tyson too liston but that's just me. Sonny was just a lot more capable of not being broken. And I do think this would affect them in the ring.

Sound point! As per usual!

[Bronson66]

There should be a grown person part of this forum and a little kids section of the forum for people like you. Liston beat who? The guys Liston beat weren't heavyweights by modern standards and they weren't even considered good for their size. Liston beat a bunch of nobodies and now pretend boxing fans like you think it means he was a top 5 fighter? Why? Because you heard somebody on TV say it? Lol then you say you don't think Lennox Lewis could hand Liston's power? Lewis was dropped twice in his career. Both 2 guys way bigger than Liston and guys who fought in a way better era than Liston did. Liston fought 180 pound Marty Marshall 3 times and Marshall went the distance 2 of those times. In Liston's prime 5 straight guys went the distance with him at one point. Liston's power is overrated based off him beating 180 pound Floyd Patterson.

Liston himself was knocked out stiff by 190 pound Leotis Martin. I know what you will say but Liston was old. Hell Foreman fought until he was pushing 50 and fighting guys much bigger and better than Martin and wasn't knocked down on his comeback. Liston wasn't that tough. He looked tough when he was facing 180 pound guys.

Liston is no where close to being even in the top 100 ATG heavyweights. Beating a 180 pound Patterson is suppose to be impressive? Lol you think David Tua, Mike Tyson, Ike Ibeabuchi, Tommy Morrison, George Foreman, Lennox Lewis, etc wouldn't of destroyed 180 pound Floyd Patterson. I cant even imagine Liston beating a guy like Charles Martin for crying out loud. Martin is bad but he is a modern sized heavyweight modern sized heavyweights. It is funny how people like you love to exaggerate older fighters because you heard somebody on TV say they were good.

Liston didn't beat top level modern sized heavyweights. Liston fought in a era where most heavyweights were smaller. His best win was over a 180 pound Floyd Patterson. That is nothing to get excited over.

Prior to winning the title,Liston beat
DeJohn no 8
Harris no 7
Machen no 5
Valdes no 2
Bethea no 8
During that time Liston also beat
Besmanoff
King
Williams
Summerlin

Patterson weighed189 1st Liston fight and194 1/2 2nd fight.
Martin was ranked no 7 when he beat Liston
24 of Liston's wins in his 54fights were over men 200lbs or over
This Moron, Money The Man is just repeating all the **** he got corrected on ,and banned on ESB for

[IronDanHamza]

The reason people overate Liston is because

1: he has a superb skill set for a man his size

2: he is physically very strong

3: he is gifted with a very long reach

4: he seemingly has no real weaknesses, even his chin is good

So long story short he is actually better than most heavyweights.....

Why is he overated?

Because Mentally he's not a hard man, just like Tyson. If you look through him he'll fall apart. He doesn't believe in himself. If he thinks someone is on to him, he'll beat himself

Absurd take.

Liston was the opposite to everything you’ve just described.

[BKM-]

The reason people overate Liston is because

1: he has a superb skill set for a man his size

2: he is physically very strong

3: he is gifted with a very long reach

4: he seemingly has no real weaknesses, even his chin is good

So long story short he is actually better than most heavyweights.....

Why is he overated?

Because Mentally he's not a hard man, just like Tyson. If you look through him he'll fall apart. He doesn't believe in himself. If he thinks someone is on to him, he'll beat himself

What a coincidence Apples, the one guy from the old era you don't hold in high regard is the guy who was massive in his own era and so massive that his dimensions still make him a very large man(giant skull, absolutely gigantic fists and arm length) even today. Such a typical, predictable post.

[QueensburyRules]

- - Liston's prime was very short pre Patterson because of various criminal convictions. When I first joined AOL, the usual drudges would claim Rocky ducked Sonny when in fact the record shows Liston was still a work in progress.

Same idjits claiming Dempsey ducked Wills where both Heaven and Earth were moved trying to make that fight that proved to be politically unfeasible in the end.

Liston's end came when he trained on whisky for Clay and then robbed by the spectacular incompetency of Walcott and Fleischer before the first round ended.

One thing Liston had going for him was that by then, he had become literate for the first time thanks to volunteer efforts of unsung angels.

[BKM-]

To answer the question, Liston was very gifted and a genetic freak, on top of that a very skilled boxer too. A very long sledgehammer left jab, deadly hooks and uppercuts on the inside. Could fight in and out, go on the offense and also counter punch. Thrives in a fight from the outside with his crazy reach, but could also brawl and grapple inside with the best of them.
Defense was great too, you should be looking at the younger version of Sonny when he was more athletic. He had great upperbody movement and really good at slipping punches.

He simply took control of fights and implemented his will and had a mental edge with intimidation and aura. H2H, I will say that again he was a genetic freak with some very strong attributes, so to beat him you have to take away as many of those as you can. Best implemented by athletic fast boxers moving from the outside like Ali, Holmes, Young(he was mentioned lately) Evander, Or giants who were also effective from the outside like Vitali, Lewis, Fury.

Going at Liston is a terrible idea unless your name is George Foreman. Mid range he will catch you too eventually. Liston was pretty well rounded.

Anyhow, I'm glad Liston has been getting a lot of attention here lately. More and more people are finding out what a forgotten gem he is.