Prime Rocky Marciano vs Prime Mike Tyson

[Lomadeaux]

- -We talkin' what grade you in this year.

When you say ****** ****, you get embarrassed. You need to understand that you look completely ridiculous right now.

[QueensburyRules]

When you say ****** ****, you get embarrassed. You need to understand that you look completely ridiculous right now.

- -What's the frequency Kenneth?

[QueensburyRules]

Even still I would say that Holyfield hit harder than old Joe Walcott. And harder than old, blown up light heavyweight Archie Moore.

- -Arch holds the all time KO Record, way more than Field has fights. Putting him on Field vitamins would have you singing soprano.

[ShoulderRoll]

- -Arch holds the all time KO Record, way more than Field has fights. Putting him on Field vitamins would have you singing soprano.

Jimmy Wilde had way more KO's than Holyfield too.

That doesn't mean he punched harder than Evander.

[billeau2]

Bigger men does not always mean harder punchers. But often it means exactly that.

I would classify Douglas, Holyfield, and Lennox Lewis as harder heavyweight punchers than 38-year-old Jersey Joe Walcott and 39-year-old Archie Moore.

I don't know if we can make such a neat scale, I would say Lewis punches very hard and uses his size well in that regard, as a great fighter would... Moore has the most KO's in history, so it would not be a stretch to say he punched as hard as Holly. Douglas and Walcott? Well Douglas was great that night, so I can give him that match up.

But Shoulder most of the best punchers in history and the heavyweight division are hardly the biggest guys, so again using a qualifyer like "often"...Just being honest here...frankly its weak!

On the other hand, I will concede that Moore was "often" not a heavyweight, and that Lewis was a very hard puncher.

[billeau2]

Having a great chin means being able to absorb punishment. Jake LaMotta being a perfect example. Or Ray Mercer. Or Marvin Hagler.

The ability to deflect or roll or set up counters is a different thing altogether.

That lies more in the realm of skills. An area in which the old timers never rated Rocky too highly. Despite the admirable work that Goldman did to bring him above the rudimentary level.

Ok lets say that then:"The chin IQ is purely about absorbing punishment." Truth is most would probably agree with that. Its still immaterial to a judgement about who could absorb more punishment between Tyson and Marciano. Marciano was never compromised with a big punch in the ring, and Tyson was on occasion but perhaps would not have been fighting the competition that Marciano fought.

The problem is one of logic not boxing stats: The most we can say is that Marciano would have had a problem with the guys that Tyson fought, going off the fact that Marciano did not have any problems but that guys are now bigger. There is not even a correlation between size and punching power, this is a fact...So it is an assumption with not even a correlation.

It is not the general opinion of trainers that Marciano had no skills shoulder. Don Turner, who ironick enough WAS HOLLY's Trainer! and Lou Duva both thought Marciano was the best, look it up. Many others did as well. I can accept an opinion that some greats thought Marciano was from a weak time in the division, and was not one of the greatest heavyweights... I actually do not know where I stand on Marciano.

In some ways he is one in seven generations (to use an old Native American saying), a man who fights like human beings are designed to fight when we were heavy boned and neanderthal built. But he did it very very well and his balance point is much closer to his center because of how he punches. this makes him look clumsy but hard to actually unbalance and hard to stop punching. Dempsey and him were both described as hitting so hard they would bruise your limbs.

[QueensburyRules]

Jimmy Wilde had way more KO's than Holyfield too.

That doesn't mean he punched harder than Evander.

- -Wilde never was a heavy contender like Archie was...Duh!

[Anthony342]

Well first of all... Tyson did not have a better chin, and Tyson, like Marciano lacked reach, so neither man had a tangible size advantage. For purposes of comparison lets use Buster Douglas who connected with his jab, using his size (reach) in the process.

Defense is also Sketchy: Marciano had better D than given credit for and Tyson could get very defensively sloppy when he stopped head movement after the first few rounds.

Now regarding power, certainly one punch power Tyson had the advantage... But if we are a little more circumspect we would look at how Holyfield, a fighter, whom like Marciano in some regards, depended on accumulation of punches, dealt Tyson such a blow. We also know that Marciano was heavy handed and had punches that did hurt opponents...though for purposes of comparison I would give Tyson that edge. With the caveat that precedent suggests Marciano had an opportunity to use accumulation like Holly did against Tyson.

And trainers? Goldman was a genius.

How about three areas of advantage? Stamina, heart and determination. Get the fight past about round 3 or 4 and The Original Rock before even Rocky Johnson, The Soul Man, has a real good chance here. Even if Tyson scores a knockdown in round 1 or 2, you know Rocky gets up, maybe not at the count of 2 or 3 this time, but he gets up and if he can survive the round, that will determine who wins this fight. Rocky wouldn't just let Tyson keep landing on him as the fight went on like Mike did against Smith or Tucker, Rocky would be firing back and firing back hard, at Mike's ribs, head and arms. Tyson would have to be able to take that, use his head movement and come back with those fast, hard combinations to win. I only see Mike winning if he ends it quickly.

[billeau2]

How about three areas of advantage? Stamina, heart and determination. Get the fight past about round 3 or 4 and The Original Rock before even Rocky Johnson, The Soul Man, has a real good chance here. Even if Tyson scores a knockdown in round 1 or 2, you know Rocky gets up, maybe not at the count of 2 or 3 this time, but he gets up and if he can survive the round, that will determine who wins this fight. Rocky wouldn't just let Tyson keep landing on him as the fight went on like Mike did against Smith or Tucker, Rocky would be firing back and firing back hard, at Mike's ribs, head and arms. Tyson would have to be able to take that, use his head movement and come back with those fast, hard combinations to win. I only see Mike winning if he ends it quickly.

Yeah there are likely scenarios and the one where Mike wins imo would have to involve an early onslaught sufficient to put Marcino where he had never been put before.

I don't see another scenario where Mike wins this.

[ShoulderRoll]

I don't know if we can make such a neat scale, I would say Lewis punches very hard and uses his size well in that regard, as a great fighter would... Moore has the most KO's in history, so it would not be a stretch to say he punched as hard as Holly. Douglas and Walcott? Well Douglas was great that night, so I can give him that match up.

But Shoulder most of the best punchers in history and the heavyweight division are hardly the biggest guys, so again using a qualifyer like "often"...Just being honest here...frankly its weak!

On the other hand, I will concede that Moore was "often" not a heavyweight, and that Lewis was a very hard puncher.

It's not weak at all. They have weight classes in boxing for a reason. And the adage that a good big man will usually beat a good little man didn't materialize out of thin air.

Does that mean that big guys are always bigger punchers? No. But it does mean that this is the general trend that one would expect.

Moore has the most KOs in history but if you use that stat then you have to be honest about it and point out that the majority of those KO's came in divisions below heavyweight.

As far as what the old timers thought of Marciano's skills I can find several quotes for you if needed. ( Lou Duva was not alive to see the great champions that came before Marciano. He is hardly what I would consider an old timer. )

Let's go with a quote from Nat Fleischer for now:

"crude, wild swinging, awkward and missed heavily. In his bout with light heavyweight champion Archie Moore, for example, he missed almost two-thirds of the 50-odd punches he threw when he had Archie against the ropes, a perfect target for the kill."