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Rating Rocky Marciano's resume

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    Rating Rocky Marciano's resume

    Firstly, let's address and dismiss the common misconception that Rocky Marciano primarily fought old or undersized heavyweights. This idea has been repeated often but lacks careful examination.

    Ezzard Charles, for example, was 33 years old—only slightly past his prime. Jersey Joe Walcott was 37, but a closer look at his career reveals he was actually a late bloomer whose prime occurred later in life. Walcott achieved little early on, making his mid-thirties his peak competitive years.

    Joe Louis was indeed past his prime at 37, yet he entered the Marciano fight on a nine-fight winning streak against credible opposition. Although clearly past his best, labeling Louis as "shot" is an exaggeration. Louis was actually the betting favorite (6-to-5) against Marciano, demonstrating that he was still considered a significant threat.

    Marciano may not have the absolute best resume in heavyweight boxing history, but let's objectively compare him with other notable heavyweights:
    • Evander Holyfield: Holyfield faced many strong opponents, but around 25% of his record consists of losses—and not just at the end of his career.
    • Sonny Liston: Liston experienced defeats throughout his career—early on, during his prime, and afterward. He notably lost to Marty Marshall, who weighed only around 180 pounds. Liston was also famously knocked out in the first round by Muhammad Ali, who wasn't known as a powerful puncher. Even discounting the second Ali fight as potentially questionable, the first fight remains a clear defeat. Liston's notable wins mainly include Zora Folley and Floyd Patterson, which doesn't surpass Marciano's accomplishments.
    • Mike Tyson: Tyson’s resume appears weaker upon careful examination. His victory over Michael Spinks—a former light heavyweight who hadn’t fought in a year and retired immediately afterward—seems questionable regarding competitive integrity. Similarly, his win over Larry Holmes, who had been inactive for two years and accepted the fight on short notice, lacks credibility. Apart from these matches, Tyson struggled and often lost decisively against tougher competition.

    Another critical factor to consider is how Marciano consistently ended his fights in a devastating and convincing manner. You never finished watching a Marciano bout feeling his opponent got the better of him. His rematches were especially brutal due to the overwhelming dominance Marciano showed in initial encounters. Criticizing the quality of Marciano's opposition is one issue, but it's another matter entirely when a fighter struggles against weaker competition—which Marciano never did.

    In summary, while Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis might have stronger overall resumes, fighters like Holyfield, Liston, and Tyson do not convincingly surpass Marciano. Given these comparisons, Marciano clearly stands out among heavyweight champions. However, the most overlooked aspect is that Marciano himself weighed only about 187 pounds. Fighting former light heavyweights was completely fair, given his own size, and these were among the best light heavyweights available. Critics quickly dismiss Marciano’s competition by labeling them as mere light heavyweights, yet they simultaneously argue Marciano was too small for heavyweight standards. This contradiction needs clarity: it can't be both ways.
    �

    #2
    - - Liston was Knocked off balance by what was barely more than an Air Punch in Ali2, not knocked out. Since Boxing is an outlaw sport run by dummy level outlaw types, Ali got the KO win instead of being DQed for fighting with the ref and refusing to go to Neutral Corner.

    No need to hystericalize history.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by QueensburyRules View Post
      - - Liston was Knocked off balance by what was barely more than an Air Punch in Ali2, not knocked out. Since Boxing is an outlaw sport run by dummy level outlaw types, Ali got the KO win instead of being DQed for fighting with the ref and refusing to go to Neutral Corner.

      No need to hystericalize history.
      How do you think Mills Lane or Richard Steele would have handled the situation?

      I'll give you my answer second. I want to see what you think first.

      Technically Ali could/should/would have been DQed.

      1. Would either have DQed Ali?
      2. Would either have stopped the fight?

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post

        How do you think Mills Lane or Richard Steele would have handled the situation?

        I'll give you my answer second. I want to see what you think first.

        Technically Ali could/should/would have been DQed.

        1. Would either have DQed Ali?
        2. Would either have stopped the fight?

        Mills let Tyson fight on after the Bite but pulled the plug after the 2nd one. Generally he was good, but Poppy should've been DQed when he flew out of the ring against Allen to burst into tears, so it's not a given that Ali might be given some sympathy.

        Steele gets Hammered for the Meldrick Taylor fight, but that was an heroic effort to give Taylor a chance to beat the count. Chavez ruined Taylor for life.

        However, he let l'l floydy get away with murder, but since Ali wasn't a big star then and wasn't a big draw, prob he DQs him for forcing him to fight Ali off to the neutral corner. Result is Liston already disgraced would've passed on his disgrace to Ali who may or may not recovered.

        I'm not sure boxing has a single ref I might consider great, so any more suggestions?

        Willie Pep 229 Willie Pep 229 likes this.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by them_apples View Post
          Firstly, let's address and dismiss the common misconception that Rocky Marciano primarily fought old or undersized heavyweights. This idea has been repeated often but lacks careful examination.

          Ezzard Charles, for example, was 33 years oldâÂÂonly slightly past his prime. Jersey Joe Walcott was 37, but a closer look at his career reveals he was actually a late bloomer whose prime occurred later in life. Walcott achieved little early on, making his mid-thirties his peak competitive years.

          Joe Louis was indeed past his prime at 37, yet he entered the Marciano fight on a nine-fight winning streak against credible opposition. Although clearly past his best, labeling Louis as "shot" is an exaggeration. Louis was actually the betting favorite (6-to-5) against Marciano, demonstrating that he was still considered a significant threat.

          Marciano may not have the absolute best resume in heavyweight boxing history, but let's objectively compare him with other notable heavyweights:
          • Evander Holyfield: Holyfield faced many strong opponents, but around 25% of his record consists of lossesâÂÂand not just at the end of his career.
          • Sonny Liston: Liston experienced defeats throughout his careerâÂÂearly on, during his prime, and afterward. He notably lost to Marty Marshall, who weighed only around 180 pounds. Liston was also famously knocked out in the first round by Muhammad Ali, who wasn't known as a powerful puncher. Even discounting the second Ali fight as potentially questionable, the first fight remains a clear defeat. Liston's notable wins mainly include Zora Folley and Floyd Patterson, which doesn't surpass Marciano's accomplishments.
          • Mike Tyson: TysonâÂÂs resume appears weaker upon careful examination. His victory over Michael SpinksâÂÂa former light heavyweight who hadnâÂÂt fought in a year and retired immediately afterwardâÂÂseems questionable regarding competitive integrity. Similarly, his win over Larry Holmes, who had been inactive for two years and accepted the fight on short notice, lacks credibility. Apart from these matches, Tyson struggled and often lost decisively against tougher competition.

          Another critical factor to consider is how Marciano consistently ended his fights in a devastating and convincing manner. You never finished watching a Marciano bout feeling his opponent got the better of him. His rematches were especially brutal due to the overwhelming dominance Marciano showed in initial encounters. Criticizing the quality of Marciano's opposition is one issue, but it's another matter entirely when a fighter struggles against weaker competitionâÂÂwhich Marciano never did.

          In summary, while Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis might have stronger overall resumes, fighters like Holyfield, Liston, and Tyson do not convincingly surpass Marciano. Given these comparisons, Marciano clearly stands out among heavyweight champions. However, the most overlooked aspect is that Marciano himself weighed only about 187 pounds. Fighting former light heavyweights was completely fair, given his own size, and these were among the best light heavyweights available. Critics quickly dismiss MarcianoâÂÂs competition by labeling them as mere light heavyweights, yet they simultaneously argue Marciano was too small for heavyweight standards. This contradiction needs clarity: it can't be both ways.
          ?/div>
          Walcott was 38.
          The fact that both Louis and Walcott retired after their fights with Marciano tells us exactly where they were in their respective careers.

          Which fighter is favourite is not a reliable indication of their current ability sentiment plays a big part.eg
          Jeffries v Johnson
          Sullivan v Corbett
          Liston v Ali
          Tyson v Douglas
          Holyfield never lost a fight until he was 30,when he was defeated by 235lbs 6'5" Bowe, is it possible Marciano might also have lost to Bowe at that stage of his career?
          Seven of Holyfield's losses occurred when he was past 35.
          For the following losses ,I've put Evander's age after it.
          242lbs Lewis 37
          224lbs Ruiz 38
          224 lbs Byrd 40
          219lbs Toney40 [5 days off 41]
          215lbs Donald 41
          211 lbs Ibrahim 44
          310lbs Valuev 46
          Want to speculate how Marciano would have fared against those opponents at those ages?
          Want to hazard a guess how Rocky would make out against a prime Lewis at 37, Bowe at 30, and33 , Ibragimov at 44,Valuev at46?

          Marciano never struggled against weaker opposition?
          Lowry
          Buonvino
          Applegate
          Henri

          Good performances by Rocky?
          Undersized?
          5 opponents under 180lbs
          15 opponents under 185lbs
          25 opponents under 190lbs
          Old men?
          Louis 37
          Walcott 38
          Moore 41

          Liston beat
          Williams x2
          Pattersonx2
          Valdes
          DeJohn
          Harris
          Folley
          Machen
          Lincoln
          Clark
          Besmanoff
          Bethea
          Summerlin x2
          ​​​​​​​Wepner
          Anomalocaris Anomalocaris likes this.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Bronson66 View Post
            Walcott was 38.
            The fact that both Louis and Walcott retired after their fights with Marciano tells us exactly where they were in their respective careers.

            Which fighter is favourite is not a reliable indication of their current ability sentiment plays a big part.eg
            Jeffries v Johnson
            Sullivan v Corbett
            Liston v Ali
            Tyson v Douglas
            Holyfield never lost a fight until he was 30,when he was defeated by 235lbs 6'5" Bowe, is it possible Marciano might also have lost to Bowe at that stage of his career?
            Seven of Holyfield's losses occurred when he was past 35.
            For the following losses ,I've put Evander's age after it.
            242lbs Lewis 37
            224lbs Ruiz 38
            224 lbs Byrd 40
            219lbs Toney40 [5 days off 41]
            215lbs Donald 41
            211 lbs Ibrahim 44
            310lbs Valuev 46
            Want to speculate how Marciano would have fared against those opponents at those ages?
            Want to hazard a guess how Rocky would make out against a prime Lewis at 37, Bowe at 30, and33 , Ibragimov at 44,Valuev at46?

            Marciano never struggled against weaker opposition?
            Lowry
            Buonvino
            Applegate
            Henri

            Good performances by Rocky?
            Undersized?
            5 opponents under 180lbs
            15 opponents under 185lbs
            25 opponents under 190lbs
            Old men?
            Louis 37
            Walcott 38
            Moore 41

            Liston beat
            Williams x2
            Pattersonx2
            Valdes
            DeJohn
            Harris
            Folley
            Machen
            Lincoln
            Clark
            Besmanoff
            Bethea
            Summerlin x2
            ​​​​​​​Wepner
            Great post, sorry to the Rocky fans but if they were around at the same time prime Sonny would have put him down within three.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by them_apples View Post
              Firstly, let's address and dismiss the common misconception that Rocky Marciano primarily fought old or undersized heavyweights. This idea has been repeated often but lacks careful examination.

              Ezzard Charles, for example, was 33 years oldâÂÂonly slightly past his prime. Jersey Joe Walcott was 37, but a closer look at his career reveals he was actually a late bloomer whose prime occurred later in life. Walcott achieved little early on, making his mid-thirties his peak competitive years.

              Joe Louis was indeed past his prime at 37, yet he entered the Marciano fight on a nine-fight winning streak against credible opposition. Although clearly past his best, labeling Louis as "shot" is an exaggeration. Louis was actually the betting favorite (6-to-5) against Marciano, demonstrating that he was still considered a significant threat.

              Marciano may not have the absolute best resume in heavyweight boxing history, but let's objectively compare him with other notable heavyweights:
              • Evander Holyfield: Holyfield faced many strong opponents, but around 25% of his record consists of lossesâÂÂand not just at the end of his career.
              • Sonny Liston: Liston experienced defeats throughout his careerâÂÂearly on, during his prime, and afterward. He notably lost to Marty Marshall, who weighed only around 180 pounds. Liston was also famously knocked out in the first round by Muhammad Ali, who wasn't known as a powerful puncher. Even discounting the second Ali fight as potentially questionable, the first fight remains a clear defeat. Liston's notable wins mainly include Zora Folley and Floyd Patterson, which doesn't surpass Marciano's accomplishments.
              • Mike Tyson: TysonâÂÂs resume appears weaker upon careful examination. His victory over Michael SpinksâÂÂa former light heavyweight who hadnâÂÂt fought in a year and retired immediately afterwardâÂÂseems questionable regarding competitive integrity. Similarly, his win over Larry Holmes, who had been inactive for two years and accepted the fight on short notice, lacks credibility. Apart from these matches, Tyson struggled and often lost decisively against tougher competition.

              Another critical factor to consider is how Marciano consistently ended his fights in a devastating and convincing manner. You never finished watching a Marciano bout feeling his opponent got the better of him. His rematches were especially brutal due to the overwhelming dominance Marciano showed in initial encounters. Criticizing the quality of Marciano's opposition is one issue, but it's another matter entirely when a fighter struggles against weaker competitionâÂÂwhich Marciano never did.

              In summary, while Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis might have stronger overall resumes, fighters like Holyfield, Liston, and Tyson do not convincingly surpass Marciano. Given these comparisons, Marciano clearly stands out among heavyweight champions. However, the most overlooked aspect is that Marciano himself weighed only about 187 pounds. Fighting former light heavyweights was completely fair, given his own size, and these were among the best light heavyweights available. Critics quickly dismiss MarcianoâÂÂs competition by labeling them as mere light heavyweights, yet they simultaneously argue Marciano was too small for heavyweight standards. This contradiction needs clarity: it can't be both ways.
              ?/div>
              I will begin by picking your post apart, though Ivich covered most of it. The ratings, the odds, the recent record, are barely related to reality and mean very little. How good the fighter still is right now, means everything, not who he was once upon a time.

              Everyone you mentioned has a convincingly stronger resume, including Tyson, Holyfield and Liston. Rocky never fought the likes of Razor Ruddock even. You telling me that fight is not a big question mark? It sure is to me, son, and I feel it should be for anyone.

              His opponents were midgetweights all. And it does not matter, either, that Walcott was finally doing well. Maybe he was working as a janitor during his early career. But the fact is he was 38, which is far past any man's physical prime, and you know that.

              But as you may also know, I give Rock excellent chances against anyone you can name in an 8 ft ring. However, in a 20 ft ring Rocky is going to gnaw some canvas I believe, and more than once, if he can get up from the first time. I would bet on Tua or Ike, not the Rock. In retrospect Rock was one of the best cruiserweights of all time, and maybe and that's about it.

              Here's one for you. I think it very probable that little Sugar Ray Leonard might decision the Rock; he fights just wrong for Rock to handle.

              Tua would be a very hard opponent for the Rock; especially in the 8 ft ring he might do very well, if not win.


              Bronson66 Bronson66 likes this.

              Comment


                #8
                Criticizing Liston(Who at that point was older than any HW mentioned in this thread but you ignore this) losing to Marshall who was only LHW sized like Marciano, and then doing the same to Tyson beating Spinks who was also Marciano sized. Apparently it is bad to lose to a man that size when it's not Marciano but wouldn't be bad if it was him.

                Then you argue some of those wins weren't good because after they were beaten, they retired. But again you neglect to mention Louis and Walcott, half of Rock's resume right there, retired after losing to him.

                I pretty much stopped reading after that.
                Last edited by BKM-; 04-13-2025, 04:02 AM.
                Biledriver Biledriver likes this.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by them_apples View Post
                  Firstly, let's address and dismiss the common misconception that Rocky Marciano primarily fought old or undersized heavyweights. This idea has been repeated often but lacks careful examination.

                  Ezzard Charles, for example, was 33 years oldâÂÂonly slightly past his prime. Jersey Joe Walcott was 37, but a closer look at his career reveals he was actually a late bloomer whose prime occurred later in life. Walcott achieved little early on, making his mid-thirties his peak competitive years.

                  Joe Louis was indeed past his prime at 37, yet he entered the Marciano fight on a nine-fight winning streak against credible opposition. Although clearly past his best, labeling Louis as "shot" is an exaggeration. Louis was actually the betting favorite (6-to-5) against Marciano, demonstrating that he was still considered a significant threat.

                  Marciano may not have the absolute best resume in heavyweight boxing history, but let's objectively compare him with other notable heavyweights:
                  • Evander Holyfield: Holyfield faced many strong opponents, but around 25% of his record consists of lossesâÂÂand not just at the end of his career.
                  • Sonny Liston: Liston experienced defeats throughout his careerâÂÂearly on, during his prime, and afterward. He notably lost to Marty Marshall, who weighed only around 180 pounds. Liston was also famously knocked out in the first round by Muhammad Ali, who wasn't known as a powerful puncher. Even discounting the second Ali fight as potentially questionable, the first fight remains a clear defeat. Liston's notable wins mainly include Zora Folley and Floyd Patterson, which doesn't surpass Marciano's accomplishments.
                  • Mike Tyson: TysonâÂÂs resume appears weaker upon careful examination. His victory over Michael SpinksâÂÂa former light heavyweight who hadnâÂÂt fought in a year and retired immediately afterwardâÂÂseems questionable regarding competitive integrity. Similarly, his win over Larry Holmes, who had been inactive for two years and accepted the fight on short notice, lacks credibility. Apart from these matches, Tyson struggled and often lost decisively against tougher competition.

                  Another critical factor to consider is how Marciano consistently ended his fights in a devastating and convincing manner. You never finished watching a Marciano bout feeling his opponent got the better of him. His rematches were especially brutal due to the overwhelming dominance Marciano showed in initial encounters. Criticizing the quality of Marciano's opposition is one issue, but it's another matter entirely when a fighter struggles against weaker competitionâÂÂwhich Marciano never did.

                  In summary, while Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis might have stronger overall resumes, fighters like Holyfield, Liston, and Tyson do not convincingly surpass Marciano. Given these comparisons, Marciano clearly stands out among heavyweight champions. However, the most overlooked aspect is that Marciano himself weighed only about 187 pounds. Fighting former light heavyweights was completely fair, given his own size, and these were among the best light heavyweights available. Critics quickly dismiss MarcianoâÂÂs competition by labeling them as mere light heavyweights, yet they simultaneously argue Marciano was too small for heavyweight standards. This contradiction needs clarity: it can't be both ways.
                  ?/div>
                  Now let's look at Rocky's opponents.
                  His first 5 were under185lbs,3 of them inside the light heavy limit.
                  Rocky's
                  8th opponent was 1-5-0
                  9th A debutee
                  10th 2-2-0 and172lbs
                  12th 4-16-0
                  14th 7-10-0
                  15th 9-15-1
                  27th 22-20-5
                  32nd 8-8-1
                  33rd 7-13-3
                  34th 3-15-1
                  35th11-14-2
                  Seven of the 11 had losing records

                  Liston's
                  8th opponent was19-6-2 , 7th ranked light heavyweight Marty Marshall ,Liston, fighting with a broken jaw lost a split decision.
                  9th 13-9-1
                  10th Marshall 22-8-1
                  12th 5-2-0
                  14th 39-24-2
                  15th Marshall 24-10-2
                  27thBesmanoff 42-17-7
                  32nd Machen 34-2-7
                  33rd KIng 40-21-8
                  34th Westphal 24-8-3
                  35th Patterson for the title.

                  All the eleven had winning records
                  Now before you resort to that hackneyed excuse."well Rocky had only a handful of amateur fights,he was learning on the job"
                  Marciano's amateur record 14-4-0.
                  Liston's 11-1-0.
                  In his 6th and 7th fights Liston fought18-1-2 Johnny Summerlin Michigan State Champion whose only loss was on a cut eye.This was in1954Summerlin was the heavy favourite.Summerlin would be ranked no 7 the following year. Liston fought only one man with a losing record, Ponce De Leon.

                  Holyfield in his 12 th pro fight fought
                  12th Qawi 26-2-1
                  14th Tillman 14-1-0
                  16th Ocasio 26-2-1
                  18th DeLeon 44-4-0
                  20th Thomas 29-2-1
                  21stDokes 37-2-1
                  25th Douglas Champ

                  Holyfield's resume includes;
                  Bowe x3 no3,no1,no3
                  Tyson x2no 2 ,no 2
                  Rahman no4
                  Dokes no5
                  DouglasChamp
                  Holmes
                  Foreman no10
                  Thomas no5
                  Cooper
                  Moorer x2 no4
                  Qawi x2 no 3,no 3. Cruiser
                  DeLeon no 1 Cruiser
                  Stewart x2
                  Ruiz x3 no 5 ,no 5, no 4
                  Valuev no5
                  Lewis x2 no2 ,no2
                  Ibragimov no 6

                  Yes he had some losses.but do you think Marciano would have a clean sheet against those names, especially when he was past 30?

                  Marciano has one of the most protected resumes of the heavyweight champions, up until his 27th fight with Lastarza ,who was himself a weak punching ,protected fighter.
                  Rocky was a great fighter ,but,imo fortunate to come along when the previous era of top men were past their prime,and his post war contemporaries were not stellar competition.
                  Would Brion,****ell,Lastarza.Mathews,even get a smell of a ranking today?

                  How long would the 4 of them last with Liston,Bowe,Lewis,Holyfield?
                  Last edited by Bronson66; 04-13-2025, 05:41 AM.
                  Biledriver Biledriver likes this.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Excellent point / counterpoint discussion. I commend the thinking, the statistical research, and above all, the civil tone under which this dialog has been conducted.

                    (As though my thoughts on the subject matter any).

                    Certainly, the diminutive size of Marciano always comes into play when his merits are lightboarded against other heavyweight sovereigns, as it must.
                    The dearth of great contenders under 30 years of age and over 200 pounds of fighting weight during The Rock's tenure may have contributed to his success, surely; but nevertheless, in very real terms; the concept that anyone ever would be even capable of defeating Marciano under professional distance rules remains STRICTLY theoretical.
                    A distinction among Heavyweight Champions who have completed their careers; that Rocky Marciano alone enjoys.

                    Bronson66 Bronson66 likes this.

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