Rating Rocky Marciano's resume

[Willie Pep 229]

Where did your signature come from?

Boardwalk Empire

Gyp (fictional character) telling off Arnold Rothstein.

It's just a perfect quote for how Michael Stuhlbarg plays Rothstein.

Out of context it is probably offensive but I usually change signatures weekly anyway.

[billeau2]

Firstly, let's address and dismiss the common misconception that Rocky Marciano primarily fought old or undersized heavyweights. This idea has been repeated often but lacks careful examination.

Ezzard Charles, for example, was 33 years oldâÂÂonly slightly past his prime. Jersey Joe Walcott was 37, but a closer look at his career reveals he was actually a late bloomer whose prime occurred later in life. Walcott achieved little early on, making his mid-thirties his peak competitive years.

Joe Louis was indeed past his prime at 37, yet he entered the Marciano fight on a nine-fight winning streak against credible opposition. Although clearly past his best, labeling Louis as "shot" is an exaggeration. Louis was actually the betting favorite (6-to-5) against Marciano, demonstrating that he was still considered a significant threat.

Marciano may not have the absolute best resume in heavyweight boxing history, but let's objectively compare him with other notable heavyweights:

• Evander Holyfield: Holyfield faced many strong opponents, but around 25% of his record consists of lossesâÂÂand not just at the end of his career.
• Sonny Liston: Liston experienced defeats throughout his careerâÂÂearly on, during his prime, and afterward. He notably lost to Marty Marshall, who weighed only around 180 pounds. Liston was also famously knocked out in the first round by Muhammad Ali, who wasn't known as a powerful puncher. Even discounting the second Ali fight as potentially questionable, the first fight remains a clear defeat. Liston's notable wins mainly include Zora Folley and Floyd Patterson, which doesn't surpass Marciano's accomplishments.
• Mike Tyson: TysonâÂÂs resume appears weaker upon careful examination. His victory over Michael SpinksâÂÂa former light heavyweight who hadnâÂÂt fought in a year and retired immediately afterwardâÂÂseems questionable regarding competitive integrity. Similarly, his win over Larry Holmes, who had been inactive for two years and accepted the fight on short notice, lacks credibility. Apart from these matches, Tyson struggled and often lost decisively against tougher competition.

Another critical factor to consider is how Marciano consistently ended his fights in a devastating and convincing manner. You never finished watching a Marciano bout feeling his opponent got the better of him. His rematches were especially brutal due to the overwhelming dominance Marciano showed in initial encounters. Criticizing the quality of Marciano's opposition is one issue, but it's another matter entirely when a fighter struggles against weaker competitionâÂÂwhich Marciano never did.

In summary, while Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis might have stronger overall resumes, fighters like Holyfield, Liston, and Tyson do not convincingly surpass Marciano. Given these comparisons, Marciano clearly stands out among heavyweight champions. However, the most overlooked aspect is that Marciano himself weighed only about 187 pounds. Fighting former light heavyweights was completely fair, given his own size, and these were among the best light heavyweights available. Critics quickly dismiss MarcianoâÂÂs competition by labeling them as mere light heavyweights, yet they simultaneously argue Marciano was too small for heavyweight standards. This contradiction needs clarity: it can't be both ways.
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I think one has to reason out the idea that Marciano would have problems with bigger fighters. When this is done? Well, Marciano showed no particular weakness to bigger men, at worse one would assume neutrality... "we do not know how size would affect Marciano's performance in the ring." Then we reason that Marciano's activity level would offset the advantages a bigger man might have related to punch resistance. Thing is, Marciano was never a one punch KO guy. He would not necessarily need more power to wear down a bigger opponent.

I would never claim that this reasoning in and of itself is worth much, however when we want to take an opinion it matters. I can say with some certainty that a fighter like Ji Li (for example) has issues of stamina that have shown themselves in the ring. I cannot say that anything Marciano did shows a potential problem against a bigger opponent.

It is for this reason that many believe Marciano, even at less than 200 pounds, would be able to fight bigger guys. It all comes down to how we consider the advantages a fighter like Vlad K would have against Marciano. The problem with the logic being: When we look carefully at the juxtaposition of handicaps Marciano's strengths play so well against the weaknesses of a fighter like Vlad. Yet, the only real reason we can give Vlad (as our example) a great advantage because of size is because of the sheer amount of size difference. Even a real advantage like reach is questionable considering how Marciano was so able to use his so called weaknesses (reach) as an advantages. Does anyone believe that Marciano could be made unable to reach a fighter like Vlad?

Another way to understand my point: Tyson was not much bigger than Marciano, does anyone believe that Tyson would beat Marciano wholly because of a size difference? What about Liston? Liston was a big heavy weight, he could easily have come in at the size of a large heavyweight today if he was out of shape. Would Liston just overpower Marciano because he was "bigger?" I would say "no." If anything Liston, whom to some of us was one of the very best ever.... might be able to out skill Marciano's pit bull attack in close with an equally skillful display of using reach. The point being: when we look at HOW Marciano could lose in a fight to a bigger opponent, it never adds up as being because of the size difference.

So how can we reasonably say that Marciano would not be able to compete as a heavyweight in the present division because of his size? Think it through and it becomes a real interesting exercise in logical thinking and observation.

[IronDanHamza]

To even compare Marciano’s resume is Holyfield’s is laughable.

To imply it’s better than Holyfield’s is comical.

[Bronson66]

I think one has to reason out the idea that Marciano would have problems with bigger fighters. When this is done? Well, Marciano showed no particular weakness to bigger men, at worse one would assume neutrality... "we do not know how size would affect Marciano's performance in the ring." Then we reason that Marciano's activity level would offset the advantages a bigger man might have related to punch resistance. Thing is, Marciano was never a one punch KO guy. He would not necessarily need more power to wear down a bigger opponent.

I would never claim that this reasoning in and of itself is worth much, however when we want to take an opinion it matters. I can say with some certainty that a fighter like Ji Li (for example) has issues of stamina that have shown themselves in the ring. I cannot say that anything Marciano did shows a potential problem against a bigger opponent.

It is for this reason that many believe Marciano, even at less than 200 pounds, would be able to fight bigger guys. It all comes down to how we consider the advantages a fighter like Vlad K would have against Marciano. The problem with the logic being: When we look carefully at the juxtaposition of handicaps Marciano's strengths play so well against the weaknesses of a fighter like Vlad. Yet, the only real reason we can give Vlad (as our example) a great advantage because of size is because of the sheer amount of size difference. Even a real advantage like reach is questionable considering how Marciano was so able to use his so called weaknesses (reach) as an advantages. Does anyone believe that Marciano could be made unable to reach a fighter like Vlad?

Another way to understand my point: Tyson was not much bigger than Marciano, does anyone believe that Tyson would beat Marciano wholly because of a size difference? What about Liston? Liston was a big heavy weight, he could easily have come in at the size of a large heavyweight today if he was out of shape. Would Liston just overpower Marciano because he was "bigger?" I would say "no." If anything Liston, whom to some of us was one of the very best ever.... might be able to out skill Marciano's pit bull attack in close with an equally skillful display of using reach. The point being: when we look at HOW Marciano could lose in a fight to a bigger opponent, it never adds up as being because of the size difference.

So how can we reasonably say that Marciano would not be able to compete as a heavyweight in the present division because of his size? Think it through and it becomes a real interesting exercise in logical thinking and observation.

To address your points B,Tyson was around 30lbs heavier than Marciano,and it was all muscle, the tale of the tape also shows Tyson had a much bigger upper body,arms,neck,chest,all being appreciably bigger, he also had 3 inches of reach on Rocky,had a better defence,better resistance to cuts ,he was quicker into range, and his hands were much,much faster.
Tyson stops Marciano inside 8 rds imo too fast,he had every advantage.

Coming straight at Liston is kamikaze,if he could pick any style to fight, a short armed, slow of foot ,185lbs cut prone fighter,fits the template .
Marciano does not beat Sonny,he gets busted up at range, tied up and manhandled inside, and Liston had a good uppercut ,the perfect antidote for the short croucher.Marciano can't box with Liston, and he can't win a punching shoot out.imo

Wlad would spear Marciano with his 81 in reach, and d**** himself all over him inside, Rocky would be giving away 60lbs ,and I defy anyone to tell me he hit harder than Wlad.

This isn't fat HumphreyJackson 4-3-0, having his last fight against Rocky this is a fine boxer, a sculpted athlete who even past 40 gave AJ all he wanted ,a champion who hits like a truck with either hand.Slipping the jab?Rocky couldn't avoid ancient Joe Louis' jab," I just had to take them",what would Wlad's do to his tender skin?

Since the 60's,how many 185lbs heavyweights have been successful fighting modern sized heavies?

We have no proof that Rocky could not hang with those larger guys,but likewise ,we have no proof that he could.

I would give Dempsey a better chance against the big boys,because he was more elusive and quicker into range and with his handspeed,to me Dempsey was a better version of Marciano,and when Marciano was champion he was seen as a poorer facsimile of Jack.

The fact that every single small heavyweight aspirant has added bulk to compete with the bigger guys implies that it is necessary to add that weight to be successful.

The difference being these guys,Ellis , Byrd ,Holyfield,Moorer,Spinks Haye ,Uysk were not short, and both their hand and foot speed was not," poor to average." They had the necessary height to absorb and carry the extra poundage,they were also all better boxers than Rocky.

I hope nobody will say Marciano was ever quick of either hand or foot,and any attempt to bulk him up would adversely affect both his speed and stamina,imo.

For the record,though I think Marciano should have defended against Valdes, I place no blame for that fight not happening on Rocky,and if it had happened I think Marciano would have won.
To some extent Archie Moore acted as Rocky's unintentional "policeman",knocking off the likes of.Henry,Baker,Valdes.

Fights against those three might have told us a bit more about Marciano, defences against Lastarza and ****ell told us nothing imo .I would also sooner have seen Rocky against the likes of Walls and Satterfield.

For me Rocky DOES lose because he is simply too small,but not only that, he is outskilled,and at least matched for power.

[billeau2]

To address your points B,Tyson was around 30lbs heavier than Marciano,and it was all muscle, the tale of the tape also shows Tyson had a much bigger upper body,arms,neck,chest,all being appreciably bigger, he also had 3 inches of reach on Rocky,had a better defence,better resistance to cuts ,he was quicker into range, and his hands were much,much faster.
Tyson stops Marciano inside 8 rds imo too fast,he had every advantage.

Coming straight at Liston is kamikaze,if he could pick any style to fight, a short armed, slow of foot ,185lbs cut prone fighter,fits the template .
Marciano does not beat Sonny,he gets busted up at range, tied up and manhandled inside, and Liston had a good uppercut ,the perfect antidote for the short croucher.Marciano can't box with Liston, and he can't win a punching shoot out.imo

Wlad would spear Marciano with his 81 in reach, and d**** himself all over him inside, Rocky would be giving away 60lbs ,and I defy anyone to tell me he hit harder than Wlad.

This isn't fat HumphreyJackson 4-3-0, having his last fight against Rocky this is a fine boxer, a sculpted athlete who even past 40 gave AJ all he wanted ,a champion who hits like a truck with either hand.Slipping the jab?Rocky couldn't avoid ancient Joe Louis' jab," I just had to take them",what would Wlad's do to his tender skin?

Since the 60's,how many 185lbs heavyweights have been successful fighting modern sized heavies?

We have no proof that Rocky could not hang with those larger guys,but likewise ,we have no proof that he could.

I would give Dempsey a better chance against the big boys,because he was more elusive and quicker into range and with his handspeed,to me Dempsey was a better version of Marciano,and when Marciano was champion he was seen as a poorer facsimile of Jack.

The fact that every single small heavyweight aspirant has added bulk to compete with the bigger guys implies that it is necessary to add that weight to be successful.

The difference being these guys,Ellis , Byrd ,Holyfield,Moorer,Spinks Haye ,Uysk were not short, and both their hand and foot speed was not," poor to average." They had the necessary height to absorb and carry the extra poundage,they were also all better boxers than Rocky.

I hope nobody will say Marciano was ever quick of either hand or foot,and any attempt to bulk him up would adversely affect both his speed and stamina,imo.

For the record,though I think Marciano should have defended against Valdes, I place no blame for that fight not happening on Rocky,and if it had happened I think Marciano would have won.
To some extent Archie Moore acted as Rocky's unintentional "policeman",knocking off the likes of.Henry,Baker,Valdes.

Fights against those three might have told us a bit more about Marciano, defences against Lastarza and ****ell told us nothing imo .I would also sooner have seen Rocky against the likes of Walls and Satterfield.

For me Rocky DOES lose because he is simply too small,but not only that, he is outskilled,and at least matched for power.

The point I was trying to make is a bit different. Not speculating upon who would win, or lose... Just commenting on the logic of taking experience in the ring and extrapolating from that experience to make a judgement. I found it funny, not necessarily wrong, but interesting, that when we reason out from what we have observed, some of Marciano's foibles are based on empirical proof, while others are not. My particular interest was the notion that Marciano would have problems against a much bigger opponent.

We obviously can look at many other examples of the mismatch regarding size and performance but...If we go by the assumption that Marciano was able to overcome great disparities, and we actually look at things that bothered him in the ring, versus things assumed to stop him...

But at any rate was just matching attributes and to some extent playing devil's advocate to do so... Not saying Marciano would win, or lose any fight in particular.

For the record my feelings about Marciano are thus: His most special characteristic was the intangible of willfulness and he had a Toyota Diesel Turbo engine (Have had a Toyota Previa for years, while we were in Nevada this weekend saw a beautiful Toyota Hace Van, purring in the hotel lot...lol) And these engines have a magical quality... Mine has 300K and is as strong as can be! Marciano also transmuted what were considered weaknesses to strengths: No reach became the means to use Armstrong like tactics, his lack of size became the reason to fight out of a crouch (he had been a catcher), his lack of footspeed became the reason to angle off and leap in at intervals, etc.

By any logical process based on the rational and not the empirical Marciano should not have ever gotten into the ring... Even if we say "he could hit" which is true, he was not really a power puncher to speak of. These qualities intrigue me.

[billeau2]

To even compare Marciano’s resume is Holyfield’s is laughable.

To imply it’s better than Holyfield’s is comical.

True, but lets remember that Holyfield had one of the best resumes at heavyweight ever.

[Bronson66]

The point I was trying to make is a bit different. Not speculating upon who would win, or lose... Just commenting on the logic of taking experience in the ring and extrapolating from that experience to make a judgement. I found it funny, not necessarily wrong, but interesting, that when we reason out from what we have observed, some of Marciano's foibles are based on empirical proof, while others are not. My particular interest was the notion that Marciano would have problems against a much bigger opponent.

We obviously can look at many other examples of the mismatch regarding size and performance but...If we go by the assumption that Marciano was able to overcome great disparities, and we actually look at things that bothered him in the ring, versus things assumed to stop him...

But at any rate was just matching attributes and to some extent playing devil's advocate to do so... Not saying Marciano would win, or lose any fight in particular.

For the record my feelings about Marciano are thus: His most special characteristic was the intangible of willfulness and he had a Toyota Diesel Turbo engine (Have had a Toyota Previa for years, while we were in Nevada this weekend saw a beautiful Toyota Hace Van, purring in the hotel lot...lol) And these engines have a magical quality... Mine has 300K and is as strong as can be! Marciano also transmuted what were considered weaknesses to strengths: No reach became the means to use Armstrong like tactics, his lack of size became the reason to fight out of a crouch (he had been a catcher), his lack of footspeed became the reason to angle off and leap in at intervals, etc.

By any logical process based on the rational and not the empirical Marciano should not have ever gotten into the ring... Even if we say "he could hit" which is true, he was not really a power puncher to speak of. These qualities intrigue me.

Marciano was capable of beating big heavies,the question for me is ,was he capable of beating big heavyweights of class who were prime?
imo Marciano was an attrition puncher like Frazier, several of his more famous opponents stated others hit them harder ,his gift was that, because of his supreme conditioning he was able to keep incessantly throwing his hardest shots time and time again,without let up.

[QueensburyRules]

To even compare Marciano’s resume is Holyfield’s is laughable.

To imply it’s better than Holyfield’s is comical.

- - Well, Apples does supply good comedy, but Field lost...a lot and hung on too long because he weren't bright enough to hang on to his earnings.

No comparison is needed, just da facts, ma'am...

[billeau2]

Marciano was capable of beating big heavies,the question for me is ,was he capable of beating big heavyweights of class who were prime?
imo Marciano was an attrition puncher like Frazier, several of his more famous opponents stated others hit them harder ,his gift was that, because of his supreme conditioning he was able to keep incessantly throwing his hardest shots time and time again,without let up.

Yes, I believe Joe has many similarities. I would generalize further: Could Marciano beat a great heavyweight at prime? Even a so called "smaller" one? One of the big factors for a prime versus a twilight heavy is conditioning. For example, Marciano's excellent engine would find a competing engine if he fought Frazier. How would that offset compared to Foreman? Conventional logic (the same logic that tells us Marciano did not belong in the ring) would indicate Foreman would overpower him. Is it possible that he would weather the storm, and beat Foreman with a similar general strategy utilized by Ali? And is it also possible that Frazier's ability to match Marciano, or come close so doing with conditioning... might make Marciano vulnerable to a loss?

Because he fought great fighters past prime one can only assume Marciano would have a much greater challenge if he fought the same guys at prime.

[Bronson66]

Yes, I believe Joe has many similarities. I would generalize further: Could Marciano beat a great heavyweight at prime? Even a so called "smaller" one? One of the big factors for a prime versus a twilight heavy is conditioning. For example, Marciano's excellent engine would find a competing engine if he fought Frazier. How would that offset compared to Foreman? Conventional logic (the same logic that tells us Marciano did not belong in the ring) would indicate Foreman would overpower him. Is it possible that he would weather the storm, and beat Foreman with a similar general strategy utilized by Ali? And is it also possible that Frazier's ability to match Marciano, or come close so doing with conditioning... might make Marciano vulnerable to a loss?

Because he fought great fighters past prime one can only assume Marciano would have a much greater challenge if he fought the same guys at prime.

All salient points B.I think Marciano beats,the Sharkey's ,Baer's,Schmeling's,Patterson's,Johansson's, Leon Spinks,and I would probably,slightly favour him to beat Frazier,based on his advantage of two handed power,but Frazier was quicker ,and bigger,and had a heart as big as Rocky,and though his face puffed up he didn't bleed much.
Engines? How would Rocky do against younger prime versions of Walcott, and Charles? I think we can assume given the outcomes of their fights,that they would be even tougher wars for him to come through