Fury's retirements and the lineal championship

[Willie Pep 229]

I mean, all this about very long Fury`s lineal championship is a complete nonsense.

So, if usyk retires now and comes back in 2028, fighting some nobodies for a start, he will still be recognized lineal champion?

That is bull.****.

There is no right or wrong aanswer, in time people will decide, and that will be that.

Ask Marvin Hart what the rules are.

[billeau2]

When Joe Louis retired, his return fight against Ezzard Charles was considered to be for the vacant lineal championship. This is despite him retiring as champion and no clear new lineage being established in his absence.

Tyson Fury became the lineal heavyweight champion of the world when he beat Wladimir Klitschko and then he retired. He stayed retired for longer than Louis, then returned.

If you look at the TBRB and The Ring, both of them honored Fury's retirement and they considered their championships vacant until Tyson Fury defeated Deontay Wilder in their second bout. At that point they were the top two heavyweights according to The Ring, TBRB, ESPN, and the vast majority of other independent outlets.

Fury then "retired" again, and again, the TBRB and the Ring honored his retirement. Their titles were once again vacant until Oleksandr Usyk defeated Anthony Joshua the second time, as again, those two were the top rated heavyweights at that point in time.

However, Fury then unretired once again and many in the media still recognized his lineal claim from the Klitschko fight, not recognizing Usyk until he defeated Fury the first time.

So, which camp do you fall into?

Did Fury have one really long lineal championship reign, or did he have two shorter ones?

We all agree Usyk is the lineal champion now, but do you think he became lineal via his win over Fury or did he actually establish a new lineage with his second win over Anthony Joshua?

In my opinion, since they honored the retirement of Joe Louis, we need to do the same with Fury's retirements. So to me, Fury is a 2X lineal champion and he was actually challenging for Usyk's lineal championship in their first match. This is despite most of the media running with the narrative that Fury had one very long lineal reign and Usyk was the challenger.

Of course, since Usyk won their fight it ended the debate going forward. But the past is still up for discussion. Which side do you fall on?

IMO the lineal works great when it is needed. I think most people misunderstand it, using it as an absolute all the time when it works best under specific conditions. As Marg said "It is based on consensus" and that matters because ultimately fans are a consensus... Fans have the rights and privalege to determine, to weigh in on any debate about who the champion of the world (the heavyweight champ specifically) is, when things get hazy.

So when every alphabet is declaring their own champ, or when there is a question about a sudden champion who got there the wrong way, the lineal comes up and asks: "who beat the best to become the best?" To declare Usyk the lineal hardly matters because it is obvious. But what about when you get multiple alphabet soup chumpions lol? Then the fans weigh in and do so by asking that the man who beat the best, be declared the best.

So simple, so elegant, so over thought...

[billeau2]

The lineal championship has had the paradoxical history of often being decided after a fight but not necessarily universally thought to be 'on the line' before the fight.

A constant battle between sanctioning bodies and popular sentiment.

Holmes-Ali
Tyson-Spinks
Charles-Louis
Johnson-Jeffries
Frazier-Ali

There are a few others. The lineal line has been hazy on several occasions and is sometimes only clarified after a fight.

In 1950 Charles was recognized as the NBA Champion and went into the Louis fight as the recognized champion. The NYSAC earlier, had called for an elimination tournament, but when the tournament fell apart, they reluctantly recognized Charles via his win over Walcott.

When Louis then declared he would fight Charles, NYSAC withdrew its support for Charles but the NBA didn't.

After the fight NYSAC then re-recognized Charles as champion.

As to whom the populace actually thought the (lineal) champion was before the Charles-Louis go, needs to be throughly researched, trying to learn what the majority of newspapers thought at the time (as representative of the popular belief.)

But even then we can only hope for an answer based on conjecture.

Besides that, these hazy circumstances leave us with a host of 'what if' questions as well.

Whether Charles' NBA claim would have historically held up had he lost to Louis?

Same with JJ's claim via Burns. Had Jeffries beaten Jack Johnson in 1910 would JJ be on any championship list today? What about Tommy Burns?

What if Ali had beaten Frazier, would the Quarry I and Bonavena fights be remembered as title defenses? How would Frazier be remembered. This was an issue that couldn't be decided until after the Frazier-Ali go was over. A very twisted situation.

Marvin Hart, is an even better example. First recognized, then denied, lost the Burns fight, and for decades was not recognized, now is recognized by some.

It will take a decade or so for history to decide the Tyson Fury question you ask.

"What is history, but lies agreed upon." (Napoleon).

P.S. Ali-Quarry I was actually promoted as a title defense over 15 rounds. But the Bonavena fight which came second was not, but was also contested over 15 rounds. These fights are now NOT viewed as title defenses, but it took the Frazier win to retroactively make them not title defenses. But if Ali had won The Fight (March 1971) then today they probably would be seen as Ali title defenses.

Do you think this issue of present tense versus future determination regarding the lineal is a problem? Or, is the lineal timeless? Existing outside the confines of time? I do not think it is proper for people to look at the lineal as a technical formation, rather it should be the consensus opinion of the fans... making it essentially without temporal attributes.

[Willie Pep 229]

Do you think this issue of present tense versus future determination regarding the lineal is a problem? Or, is the lineal attributestimeless? Existing outside the confines of time? I do not think it is proper for people to look at the lineal as a technical formation, rather it should be the consensus opinion of the fans... making it essentially without temporal attributes.

I believe it is the bold except that it usually has to come to completion before the consensus appears.

Then some revisionst temperament appears and Marvin Hart is suddenly champion (again).

I guess I am saying it is up to posterity.

In regard to the question asked in the OP, our opinion won't count.

[EDIT]

How do feel about calling Mike Tyson the 'youngest to win the HW Title'?

A definition of the lineal title changes that answer.

Of course Michael Spinks is the fly in the ointment.

[famicommander]

I think you absolutely have to differentiate between a world title and a divisional championship.

The WBA, WBC, WBO, IBF, and IBO don't even pretend they're ranking the best fighters in the division. They are only ranking fighters moving along a specific path to their own belts. They do not rank each other's champions and often fighters will pick and choose specific bodies to be ranked by and others to ignore entirely.

The lineal championship as well as the TBRB and (even though it's highly compromised being owned by promoters for a long time and now being owned by a promoter/despotic government) The Ring at least claim to be ranking the best in the division regardless of outside circumstances. They don't care what belts somebody has, who promotes them, what bureaucratic hoops they have or haven't jumped through, etc.

I'm not saying it's not an accomplishment to win sanctioning body world titles, because it is. But I consider it an entirely different category of achievement than winning the TBRB world championship. The Ring has torpedoed its own credibility too many times over the years, but at least IN THEORY they stand for something more than the alphabet soups.

[Marchegiano]

I think you absolutely have to differentiate between a world title and a divisional championship.

The WBA, WBC, WBO, IBF, and IBO don't even pretend they're ranking the best fighters in the division. They are only ranking fighters moving along a specific path to their own belts. They do not rank each other's champions and often fighters will pick and choose specific bodies to be ranked by and others to ignore entirely.

The lineal championship as well as the TBRB and (even though it's highly compromised being owned by promoters for a long time and now being owned by a promoter/despotic government) The Ring at least claim to be ranking the best in the division regardless of outside circumstances. They don't care what belts somebody has, who promotes them, what bureaucratic hoops they have or haven't jumped through, etc.

I'm not saying it's not an accomplishment to win sanctioning body world titles, because it is. But I consider it an entirely different category of achievement than winning the TBRB world championship. The Ring has torpedoed its own credibility too many times over the years, but at least IN THEORY they stand for something more than the alphabet soups.

I think it is interesting people take issue with body ratings, who are at least supposed to rate based on achievement rather than popularity, and relieve that complaint buy turning to something that makes no pretense toward fairness.


Sanctioning bodies sell ratings to promoters even though they shouldn't so I only recognize promotional ratings from third party promotional outfits. ... seems really silly to me. Ring doesn't care who promotes who? Why on earth would you believe that?

[QueensburyRules]

Can you even read? Do you have any idea of the content of any of the posts you quote and then reply to? Why are you even on this site, all you do is respond to posts with incoherent, nonsensical, unrelated garbage.

- - Blindfolded I can read circles around you.

Look, it's OK for you to be outgunned in the genetic lottery. Dolts and slobberers also help make the world go round...yup!!!

[QueensburyRules]

I think it is interesting people take issue with body ratings, who are at least supposed to rate based on achievement rather than popularity, and relieve that complaint buy turning to something that makes no pretense toward fairness.


Sanctioning bodies sell ratings to promoters even though they shouldn't so I only recognize promotional ratings from third party promotional outfits. ... seems really silly to me. Ring doesn't care who promotes who? Why on earth would you believe that?

- - Ring was owned by Oscar who clearly penalized Manny after he lost the lawsuit to Arum for the rights to promote Manny.

Prob being Manny was so fantastical that they had no choice but to rank him highly or be laughed out of business.

[The D3vil]

Really, the question is, do you trust things that Tyson Fury says or not?

If you think he was the "lineal" champion for that long, it's because you've learned not to take Tyson Fury at what he says & choose to focus on what he does instead.

He's almost like D0nald TrXump in that way, where you can't really believe what he says because he often says 2, 3, or 4 things that often contradict other things he's said.

Did Fury file any paperwork that says he's retired?

Because guys retire & unretire on social media all the time.

Hell, didn't Tank Davis & Shakur Stevenson just "retire" recently???

Is Loma actually retired???

[Marchegiano]

Really, the question is, do you trust things that Tyson Fury says or not?

If you think he was the "lineal" champion for that long, it's because you've learned not to take Tyson Fury at what he says & choose to focus on what he does instead.

He's almost like D0nald TrXump in that way, where you can't really believe what he says because he often says 2, 3, or 4 things that often contradict other things he's said.

Did Fury file any paperwork that says he's retired?

Because guys retire & unretire on social media all the time.

Hell, didn't Tank Davis & Shakur Stevenson just "retire" recently???

Is Loma actually retired???

Is that ever a thing for a fighter?