Jimmy Young versus Sonny Liston

[billeau2]

Jimmy Young to me, is at least a top ten, perhaps a top five, ATG heavyweight... And I incline towards the top 5 on most given days. He came out of the hard scrabble Philly tradition: Men like Benny Briscoe and Frazier chasing opponents from pillar to post... Philly, a town so tough that men were rumored to put cheese whiz on their steak subs! so tough cops got mugged, and burial insurance was mandatory to ride the subways...

Alas, hold the reel! Jimmy Young was antithetical to the whole concept of the Philly fighter. A dandy among stevedores, a rodeo clown among cowboys... A smiling man of God and peace... Hardly the description that Richard Pryor gave Foreman when he was walking to the ring to face Ali: "Which Mfcker is the ref? cause Ima gonna to kill the other Mfker!" Yet Foreman among others, fell to Young. Lyle and the Acorn himself fought competatively and ultimately were defeated by Young. Young, who never had the benefit of fair judges, or a following the other super punching heavyweights of the 70's had...

Young was relegated to the class of fighters considered unworthy. Instead of being described as a defensive genius like Whitaker, or a master boxer like Camacho, Young was often described as lacking motivation, a clown, etc. It has been one of my projects involving the sweet science to give this master fighter the credit he deserves. If we look at all his major losses, a majority of them were questionable decisions. With a little different judging Jimmy Young beats every major great heavyweight of the 70's. Certainly he did not face Ali at Ali's prime... But prime for prime I believe Young gives Ali a real battle, and the fight would be close, a chess match. While he did not fight Liston he savaged Liston's protege, a fighter often looked upon as better than Liston... George Foreman.

Liston versus Young would IMO be a fight for the ages: One man a wrecking crew to fighters with an average level of skill one does not see today in the heavyweight, amatuer influenced, division. Liston fought men who fought at all ranges, threw all punches, were tough and crafty... Not great fighters, but highly skilled fighters who would be a handful in any time in history. Meanwhile Young who fought in the division, in a style antithetical to Liston, against some of the best heavyweights in history. Consider how Holmes did versus Young against some of the same opponents... Just to give a sense of perspective.

This would be a fight that Young would have to be even better than he was against Foreman because Liston did not make the mistakes Foreman made... Liston would have to catch Young and damage him. Young could fight messy and hurt. Young also had enough firepower to overwhelm when needed. So Liston would not be able to just shake off shots anymore than Foreman could.

Who wins?

[Anomalocaris]

Prime Liston deposits Young on Pluto.

[QueensburyRules]

Prime Liston deposits Young on Pluto.

- - Via Timbuktu...

[Bronson66]

Jimmy Young to me, is at least a top ten, perhaps a top five, ATG heavyweight... And I incline towards the top 5 on most given days. He came out of the hard scrabble Philly tradition: Men like Benny Briscoe and Frazier chasing opponents from pillar to post... Philly, a town so tough that men were rumored to put cheese whiz on their steak subs! so tough cops got mugged, and burial insurance was mandatory to ride the subways...

Alas, hold the reel! Jimmy Young was antithetical to the whole concept of the Philly fighter. A dandy among stevedores, a rodeo clown among cowboys... A smiling man of God and peace... Hardly the description that Richard Pryor gave Foreman when he was walking to the ring to face Ali: "Which Mfcker is the ref? cause Ima gonna to kill the other Mfker!" Yet Foreman among others, fell to Young. Lyle and the Acorn himself fought competatively and ultimately were defeated by Young. Young, who never had the benefit of fair judges, or a following the other super punching heavyweights of the 70's had...

Young was relegated to the class of fighters considered unworthy. Instead of being described as a defensive genius like Whitaker, or a master boxer like Camacho, Young was often described as lacking motivation, a clown, etc. It has been one of my projects involving the sweet science to give this master fighter the credit he deserves. If we look at all his major losses, a majority of them were questionable decisions. With a little different judging Jimmy Young beats every major great heavyweight of the 70's. Certainly he did not face Ali at Ali's prime... But prime for prime I believe Young gives Ali a real battle, and the fight would be close, a chess match. While he did not fight Liston he savaged Liston's protege, a fighter often looked upon as better than Liston... George Foreman.

Liston versus Young would IMO be a fight for the ages: One man a wrecking crew to fighters with an average level of skill one does not see today in the heavyweight, amatuer influenced, division. Liston fought men who fought at all ranges, threw all punches, were tough and crafty... Not great fighters, but highly skilled fighters who would be a handful in any time in history. Meanwhile Young who fought in the division, in a style antithetical to Liston, against some of the best heavyweights in history. Consider how Holmes did versus Young against some of the same opponents... Just to give a sense of perspective.

This would be a fight that Young would have to be even better than he was against Foreman because Liston did not make the mistakes Foreman made... Liston would have to catch Young and damage him. Young could fight messy and hurt. Young also had enough firepower to overwhelm when needed. So Liston would not be able to just shake off shots anymore than Foreman could.

Who wins?

I didn't like Young,and I put his close losses down to the fact he was not prepared to go that extra mile,ie he did not have a winners mentality.
I think his performance against Ali was shameful.
Young got a flash KD against George when George was coming forward and George got up immediately,I don't think he is flooring Sonny.
Just my opinion.B

[billeau2]

I do understand my opinion is in the minority... I will simply say: Young had a grin and it made him look "lazy." But he got tagged and had to fight through adversity, even when he looked foolish. Some of his hijinks were not appreciated... Whitaker also would bend low and do such things at times, clowning was part of both men's approach to antagonize.

The one thing I disagree with most is on the Foreman fight. In my estimation Young took Foreman out into deep water and dropped him. He may well have lost a decision given how he was often perceived by the judges... IMO it was a master class with a master stroke.

Liston to me is top one or two heavyweight... so I am more than sympathetic to the notion he destroys Young, I just happen not to think so because IMO Young was chronically underestimated. Notice my opinion is not based on precedent... I would not cite something like the Marty Marshall fight as a "reason" for picking Young. I just feel that Young had the fortitude to face giants (Foreman) and the skills to box incredibly well.

I should edit this to also say... When a man is born slim of limbs, big headed, to a brood of Neanderthals, he is judged weak, despite the genetic evolution... Young was hardly going to get credability as a Philly heavyweight. I wonder how he would have been adjudges in Kronk, where his boxing style would fit in well with some of the heralded fighters like Michael Moorer.

[Bronson66]

I do understand my opinion is in the minority... I will simply say: Young had a grin and it made him look "lazy." But he got tagged and had to fight through adversity, even when he looked foolish. Some of his hijinks were not appreciated... Whitaker also would bend low and do such things at times, clowning was part of both men's approach to antagonize.

The one thing I disagree with most is on the Foreman fight. In my estimation Young took Foreman out into deep water and dropped him. He may well have lost a decision given how he was often perceived by the judges... IMO it was a master class with a master stroke.

Liston to me is top one or two heavyweight... so I am more than sympathetic to the notion he destroys Young, I just happen not to think so because IMO Young was chronically underestimated. Notice my opinion is not based on precedent... I would not cite something like the Marty Marshall fight as a "reason" for picking Young. I just feel that Young had the fortitude to face giants (Foreman) and the skills to box incredibly well.

I should edit this to also say... When a man is born slim of limbs, big headed, to a brood of Neanderthals, he is judged weak, despite the genetic evolution... Young was hardly going to get credability as a Philly heavyweight. I wonder how he would have been adjudges in Kronk, where his boxing style would fit in well with some of the heralded fighters like Michael Moorer.

We can agree to disagree.

[BKM-]

I do understand my opinion is in the minority... I will simply say: Young had a grin and it made him look "lazy." But he got tagged and had to fight through adversity, even when he looked foolish. Some of his hijinks were not appreciated... Whitaker also would bend low and do such things at times, clowning was part of both men's approach to antagonize.

The one thing I disagree with most is on the Foreman fight. In my estimation Young took Foreman out into deep water and dropped him. He may well have lost a decision given how he was often perceived by the judges... IMO it was a master class with a master stroke.

Liston to me is top one or two heavyweight... so I am more than sympathetic to the notion he destroys Young, I just happen not to think so because IMO Young was chronically underestimated. Notice my opinion is not based on precedent... I would not cite something like the Marty Marshall fight as a "reason" for picking Young. I just feel that Young had the fortitude to face giants (Foreman) and the skills to box incredibly well.

I should edit this to also say... When a man is born slim of limbs, big headed, to a brood of Neanderthals, he is judged weak, despite the genetic evolution... Young was hardly going to get credability as a Philly heavyweight. I wonder how he would have been adjudges in Kronk, where his boxing style would fit in well with some of the heralded fighters like Michael Moorer.

You're not alone. I actually mentioned a few days ago that Young(along with Holmes) would be difficult style matchups for Liston in the golden era, while I would see him walking through everyone else but Ali and Foreman(Very very close fight). Young could spoil fights, frustrate opponents and win enough rounds.

[billeau2]

You're not alone. I actually mentioned a few days ago that Young(along with Holmes) would be difficult style matchups for Liston in the golden era, while I would see him walking through everyone else but Ali and Foreman(Very very close fight). Young could spoil fights, frustrate opponents and win enough rounds.

Yeah he certainly could. A lot of people tend to see his tactics as simply boorish. Thing is a Matadore antagonizes the Bull... I hate bull fighting but the analogy is just so apt... Holmes gets a lot of props these days and that is fine by me... But when we break Holmes down what we find is probably the best lateral movement of any heavyweight, along with a textbook jab. When we break Young down we see counter punching, excellent use of timing and distance, a class A beard along with the rest of the super 70's heavyweights, etc. The timing and distance are less tangible than Holmes attributes, and that in itself creates ambivalence regarding Young.

[Mr Mitts]

Jimmy Young to me, is at least a top ten, perhaps a top five, ATG heavyweight... And I incline towards the top 5 on most given days. He came out of the hard scrabble Philly tradition: Men like Benny Briscoe and Frazier chasing opponents from pillar to post... Philly, a town so tough that men were rumored to put cheese whiz on their steak subs! so tough cops got mugged, and burial insurance was mandatory to ride the subways...

Alas, hold the reel! Jimmy Young was antithetical to the whole concept of the Philly fighter. A dandy among stevedores, a rodeo clown among cowboys... A smiling man of God and peace... Hardly the description that Richard Pryor gave Foreman when he was walking to the ring to face Ali: "Which Mfcker is the ref? cause Ima gonna to kill the other Mfker!" Yet Foreman among others, fell to Young. Lyle and the Acorn himself fought competatively and ultimately were defeated by Young. Young, who never had the benefit of fair judges, or a following the other super punching heavyweights of the 70's had...

Young was relegated to the class of fighters considered unworthy. Instead of being described as a defensive genius like Whitaker, or a master boxer like Camacho, Young was often described as lacking motivation, a clown, etc. It has been one of my projects involving the sweet science to give this master fighter the credit he deserves. If we look at all his major losses, a majority of them were questionable decisions. With a little different judging Jimmy Young beats every major great heavyweight of the 70's. Certainly he did not face Ali at Ali's prime... But prime for prime I believe Young gives Ali a real battle, and the fight would be close, a chess match. While he did not fight Liston he savaged Liston's protege, a fighter often looked upon as better than Liston... George Foreman.

Liston versus Young would IMO be a fight for the ages: One man a wrecking crew to fighters with an average level of skill one does not see today in the heavyweight, amatuer influenced, division. Liston fought men who fought at all ranges, threw all punches, were tough and crafty... Not great fighters, but highly skilled fighters who would be a handful in any time in history. Meanwhile Young who fought in the division, in a style antithetical to Liston, against some of the best heavyweights in history. Consider how Holmes did versus Young against some of the same opponents... Just to give a sense of perspective.

This would be a fight that Young would have to be even better than he was against Foreman because Liston did not make the mistakes Foreman made... Liston would have to catch Young and damage him. Young could fight messy and hurt. Young also had enough firepower to overwhelm when needed. So Liston would not be able to just shake off shots anymore than Foreman could.

Who wins?

Interesting post that I disagree with some. You may be overboard like Apples is with Marciano. I can find more than 5 heavyweight champs I think would beat Young as long as they are in their prime and I think more than 10 as well: Dempsey, Tunney, Louis, Walcott, Charles, Patterson, Liston, Ali, Foreman, Holmes, M. Spinks, Tyson, Lewis, Vlad, Fury, Usyk.

I figure all of the above have better than a 50-50 chance of beating old feather fists. This without naming others like Marciano who might wear him down and land one, or Corbett who might outbox him, Johnson who might rassle him to death and Andy Ruiz who might surprise him.

I don't dislike Young. I always admired what he could do without a punch. He beat terrible versions of Ali and Foreman which count for very little. Foreman was at his lowest ebb. Jimmy one of the best pure boxers ever, but a light puncher like most great pure boxers.

Nor do I think Camacho was a master boxer any more than I would call Ali one. Like Ali he relied mostly on his natural gifts of speed, reflexes, and of course running. To me a master boxer has to have a full medicine bag of traditional techniques and tools to be a great pure boxer. Young had those tools and was a better pure boxer than Camacho.

Liston never beat anything even close to a great fighter,which you admitted. Some were decent like Folley, Machen, Williams and maybe Valdez, the others are forgotten detritus. He never beat a near great fighter either.

[Anomalocaris]

Regardless of our own opinons, our posts (within reason and not trolling) are all excellent.

No one person can say with absolutely stone cold certainty.

Discussion!