Jimmy Young versus Sonny Liston

[Mr Mitts]

I don't think the less of any poster for having an opinion that is in the minority including them apples. Your first point is framed by the assertion "what I think.". So the first paragraph or so you trying to diminish with a comparison to another poster who happens to be very knowledgeable about boxing regardless of any particular POV, and then you simply state that you disagree which more power to you buddy!

You fail to see the part of what made young special was his ability to defy the odds, almost a bit like Marciano actually come to think of it... I'm not commenting on 50/50 chances or anything like that simply saying there was no way Young was going to beat foreman for example, or that he should have been able to hang in there with Norton and with the acorn, who did knock him out but tied in the next fight, and Lyle. Many people feel he also beat Allie as well.

When I go by is tape. I can't really post links here for some reason and that frustrates me to try, but go look up the compilation where Jimmy Young's technique is analyzed on YouTube and you'll get some sense of what I am looking at.

You're a bit of a clown... First again I don't really need to know what you think. You can agree to disagree. If you have information about that opinion I'd love to hear it that's great.

So we disagree about what makes a master boxer...ok. But what really gets me? You take a Sonny Listen quote out of context and call me on it. Read what I wrote about Sonny listing clown okay? Then get back to me and make your point. You literally are taking half of the information related to the statement, and in addition to that you're not giving the context I gave for the statement initially so it sounds totally bogus. Hint it's not what I said by any means or stretch of imagination. You just seem real intent on gotcha

No I don't want to one-up you. You are the best guy about punching dynamics. I would like to know which half you think I am missing or taking out of context. You think because I don't mention every idea from one of your posts that I didn't read them?

I guess you think Camacho was a great pure boxer. I explained why I think not, but I guess that was in a neighboring related thread about 14 hours ago maybe. Neither he or Ali would be a great pure boxer without lightning reflexes, but those who actually are still would be, if you took away their super speed. Young after all was only fairly fast but still one of the pure great boxers. Chris Byrd is another one who is only fairly quicker than much of his competition.

I also explained that upon deeper examination I realized I could only find Ali who I felt certain would beat him (Liston) more than he lost. The others all had question marks, which means I am forced to concede that I may rate Liston as high as #2, which almost certainly puts him Top 5. You may run into the post.

The Foreman and Ali wins are quite tarnished and Ali win also somewhat disgusting. I am not convinced he was any better than feather-fisted Chris Byrd who did the same thing to bigger men of comparative quality. Would you favor Young over Byrd HTH?

[Mr Mitts]

Bill, see page 1 of rating Liston HTH, written before your last post.

[Anomalocaris]

Lol your mom thinks I am huge. Much bigger than your daddy little boy, also you can't argue with a little child. That is what you are. You aren't a boxing fan. You are just a little kid who think if he pretends to be a boxing fan he will be edgy and cool. Your boxing knowledge is basically you watch a YouTube video about boxing and now think you are a expert.

I made a factual statement. What did Liston do with his boxing career besides beat a 180 pound Floyd Patterson? Liston was so great because of what ? Him losing to 180 pound Marty Marshall? Now little goofy kids like you act like this guy was unbeatable? Lol he wasn't beating top level modern heavyweights. He was beating 180 pound guys. Maybe go back to watching your little YouTube videos about boxing and stop pretending to actually know a darn thing about boxing.

I am 54 'mate' - which only makes me a 'kid' if I am a ****ing Greenland shark.

[shawnkemp804]

I am 54 'mate' - which only makes me a 'kid' if I am a ****ing Greenland shark.

So you are a old idiot? Fantastic. Your parents must be proud. Lol so your only response is to tell me how old you are ? Fantastic. No logical answer why you think Liston is unbeatable when he lost to 180 pound Marty Marshall right? Just tell me your age again and tell me some other ****** stuff. You have no retort to explain why you think nobody could go the distance with Liston when 5 straight people went the distance with Liston before and I don't mean a old Liston. You have no answer for why you believe Liston was a ATG do you? Lol so you are proving my point child. No matter what your age is your have the mentality of a child. You problem never watch boxing a day in your life child. But you did watch a YouTube video little boy right? Now you are this boxing expert.

It still won't change facts. Liston beat a 180 pound Floyd Patterson. Beating a 180 pound fighter when you are 210 pounds doesn't make you a ATG heavyweight. You are the same type of little child that will say Deontay Wilder is a bum while praising Liston. No matter how bad Wilder is you know what? He still knocked out 250/260 pound guys. Knocking out a 260 pound guy is still more pressive than knocking out a 180 pound guy.

Let me guess , you are a white guy. Zero percent of white guys I see pretending to talk about boxing understand there are weight classes in boxing. None seem to be able to grasp that 180 pounds isn't a heavyweight anymore. So the best person Liston beat wouldn't be considered a heavyweight anymore. So Liston isn't a ATG and he wasn't even a great in his weak era. He beat one so called top guy and that top guy was a 180 pounds. It is like saying Buster Douglas is a ATG because he beat Mike Tyson. Douglas beating Mike Tyson is far more impressive than Liston beating a 180 pound Floyd Patterson.

Instead of having something intelligent to say about boxing watch you give me something ****** proving my point. That you are a moron and you don't know a thing about boxing.

[Anomalocaris]

My parents have passed you ****ing gutless coward. Mention them again and I will get you banned you c***.

[Bronson66]

My parents have passed you ****ing gutless coward. Mention them again and I will get you banned you c***.

He made a similar remark about my Mother also passed.I've never reported anyone,but if this POS is banned nobody will miss him.

[Anomalocaris]

He made a similar remark about my Mother also passed.I've never reported anyone,but if this POS is banned nobody will miss him.

I don't mind trolling but every person who has ever cared about me has passed in including my girlfriend so disgusting remarks like that really pi** me off Bronson.

I am sorry about your mother.

I won't report him as he is simply not worth my time.

[billeau2]

No I don't want to one-up you. You are the best guy about punching dynamics. I would like to know which half you think I am missing or taking out of context. You think because I don't mention every idea from one of your posts that I didn't read them?

I guess you think Camacho was a great pure boxer. I explained why I think not, but I guess that was in a neighboring related thread about 14 hours ago maybe. Neither he or Ali would be a great pure boxer without lightning reflexes, but those who actually are still would be, if you took away their super speed. Young after all was only fairly fast but still one of the pure great boxers. Chris Byrd is another one who is only fairly quicker than much of his competition.

I also explained that upon deeper examination I realized I could only find Ali who I felt certain would beat him (Liston) more than he lost. The others all had question marks, which means I am forced to concede that I may rate Liston as high as #2, which almost certainly puts him Top 5. You may run into the post.

The Foreman and Ali wins are quite tarnished and Ali win also somewhat disgusting. I am not convinced he was any better than feather-fisted Chris Byrd who did the same thing to bigger men of comparative quality. Would you favor Young over Byrd HTH?

Ok fair enough... Here is what I have said about Liston. "While a lot of heavyweights in the past have not had the luxury of fellow ATG level competition, another measure of competition is the general level of fighters during the period. Liston fought very skilled fighters with a lot of skills, evident from watching the things they were capable of doing on film..." I usually then give an example of such a fight, fighter...

This information totally changes the comment. I do not imply that Liston lacked... On the contrary, I imply, and think, he fought some tough hombres which puts him in great steed compared to other so called great heavyweights like the Klitskos, Tyson, etc and most heavy weights, who really faced what I would consider "questionable" opposition.

What I think about Camacho, or Liston, or Mother Theresa... feel free to disagree, just please do not misrepresent the opinion put fourth... I have no problem with a disagreement. I also do not really concern myself with your, or any opinion per se, rather, my interest is the REASON for the opinion. Reasons can be debated, accepted, etc.

Byrd is an example of a fighter very much in the mold of Young... Here is my opinion, again feel free to disagree, just understand what the proposition is in the first place! Byrd grew up in the Michigan guild, where the skills a fighter like Young had would have been respected. Watch Young against the likes of Toney Tucker, where Floyd Patterson, Burt Sugar and others rant disparaging comments against Young in perpetuaty. Byrd was always admired for the same qualities... Young imo fought giants compared to Byrd, he also had more refined technical chops, but Byrd was talented as well.

Young had better economy of movement, Byrd better lateral movement... Byrd was called cunning, Young was called "cute." Byrd got credit for boxing, Young was booed for antagonizing his opponents. Patterson, whom I have a great amount of respect for, would never call Ali by his adopted name, and while Young displayed a similar approach to Patterson in many respects, Patterson was, like the rest of the peanut gallery, critical of Young. Who wins? Probably Young because Young actually punched well in combos (like Patterson) and Byrd was essentially a counter puncher.

Feather fisted? Young? Ali? Ok your entitled... In the heavyweight division, at a time when, unlike today, or when Byrd fought, big punchers could move, had skills, and would chase you down (compared to Zhang who cannot throw but a few punches a round), no feather fisted opponent could survive. Ali had timing and could sit down on his shots when he wanted to do so. Young could stun his opponents and pressure them enough that they respected his punch.

[Bronson66]

Ok fair enough... Here is what I have said about Liston. "While a lot of heavyweights in the past have not had the luxury of fellow ATG level competition, another measure of competition is the general level of fighters during the period. Liston fought very skilled fighters with a lot of skills, evident from watching the things they were capable of doing on film..." I usually then give an example of such a fight, fighter...

This information totally changes the comment. I do not imply that Liston lacked... On the contrary, I imply, and think, he fought some tough hombres which puts him in great steed compared to other so called great heavyweights like the Klitskos, Tyson, etc and most heavy weights, who really faced what I would consider "questionable" opposition.

What I think about Camacho, or Liston, or Mother Theresa... feel free to disagree, just please do not misrepresent the opinion put fourth... I have no problem with a disagreement. I also do not really concern myself with your, or any opinion per se, rather, my interest is the REASON for the opinion. Reasons can be debated, accepted, etc.

Byrd is an example of a fighter very much in the mold of Young... Here is my opinion, again feel free to disagree, just understand what the proposition is in the first place! Byrd grew up in the Michigan guild, where the skills a fighter like Young had would have been respected. Watch Young against the likes of Toney Tucker, where Floyd Patterson, Burt Sugar and others rant disparaging comments against Young in perpetuaty. Byrd was always admired for the same qualities... Young imo fought giants compared to Byrd, he also had more refined technical chops, but Byrd was talented as well.

Young had better economy of movement, Byrd better lateral movement... Byrd was called cunning, Young was called "cute." Byrd got credit for boxing, Young was booed for antagonizing his opponents. Patterson, whom I have a great amount of respect for, would never call Ali by his adopted name, and while Young displayed a similar approach to Patterson in many respects, Patterson was, like the rest of the peanut gallery, critical of Young. Who wins? Probably Young because Young actually punched well in combos (like Patterson) and Byrd was essentially a counter puncher.

Feather fisted? Young? Ali? Ok your entitled... In the heavyweight division, at a time when, unlike today, or when Byrd fought, big punchers could move, had skills, and would chase you down (compared to Zhang who cannot throw but a few punches a round), no feather fisted opponent could survive. Ali had timing and could sit down on his shots when he wanted to do so. Young could stun his opponents and pressure them enough that they respected his punch.

Jimmy Young had some pop, I saw him drop British Champ John L Gardner in London.

[Mr Mitts]

Jimmy Young had some pop, I saw him drop British Champ John L Gardner in London.

Pop? C'mon. The guy had 12 KOs in 56 fights. Are you sure the other guy didn't slip? Accidents happen. Review that tape for a banana peel.