Does anyone still think the old time heavyweights were too small to be competitive in the modern era?

[billeau2]

I would not take any black trainer's opinion of Marciano to heart.

It has always been a black-thing to discredit Marciano as much as it has always been a white-tging to over praise him.

The BS flows both ways.

Careful... Turner, Holly's trainer idolized Marciano, and there are other Black trainers as well. marciano's name pops up a lot as best heavyweight ever... Not making a judgement, or wagering an opinion of my own, but it is suprising how many feel marciano was exceptional... Including trainers of all persuasions.

[Mr Mitts]

Marciano could have been KOd, like any man. He never was for two reasons:

1 He had an incredible chin
2 He fought mediocre or old competition that could punch hard

I love him and rate him a top cruiser weight AT, especially at the old limit.

What is not overrated about him are his chin, heart and stamina. They are beyond question. He punched hard but I think he is a little overrated in single punch. I really think he does not tower over almost everyone else for punching power as often advertised; he towers over them for his ability to punch hard and often all the way with almost every punch wince-worthy if it lands. His pure boxing ability is 2 out of 10, 1 being a novice. He did what he did well and gets a 10 for that narrow window. Of course he has no versatility and only one fight plan of go get 'em, tiger.

Do I think he could take the punches of Wilder? I think that would be too much to ask. I don't think any 190 lbs fighter could.

I am just wondering, has anyone ever seen a glass jaw on a man with huge traps?

[ShoulderRoll]

I would not take any black trainer's opinion of Marciano to heart.

It has always been a black-thing to discredit Marciano as much as it has always been a white-tging to over praise him.

The BS flows both ways.

It’s a modern white thing to overrate him. Usually by white people that don’t know anything about boxing history and just see race.

Back during Marciano’s reign the white boxing cognoscenti didn’t rank him above Jack Johnson, Dempsey, Joe Louis etc.

[Willie Pep 229]

It’s a modern white thing to overrate him. Usually by white people that don’t know anything about boxing history and just see race.

Back during Marciano’s reign the white boxing cognoscenti didn’t rank him above Jack Johnson, Dempsey, Joe Louis etc.

That might be a result of the old platitude 'familiarity breeds contempt.'

Fighters are usually considered less by their contemporaries and gain legacy later on.

There always seems to be an old timer who is certain that everything was better back in his day.

So I suspect, but don't know, that the same may have applied to Maricano in his day.

I guess I am just not big on anyone's testimonial.

But I do understand your point.

[Bronson66]

It’s a modern white thing to overrate him. Usually by white people that don’t know anything about boxing history and just see race.

Back during Marciano’s reign the white boxing cognoscenti didn’t rank him above Jack Johnson, Dempsey, Joe Louis etc.

No they didn't, and I don't now.

[Bronson66]

Careful... Turner, Holly's trainer idolized Marciano, and there are other Black trainers as well. marciano's name pops up a lot as best heavyweight ever... Not making a judgement, or wagering an opinion of my own, but it is suprising how many feel marciano was exceptional... Including trainers of all persuasions.

I don't have much regard for Turner,I think he is full of it.

[Marchegiano]

Marciano could have been KOd, like any man. He never was for two reasons:

1 He had an incredible chin
2 He fought mediocre or old competition that could punch hard

I love him and rate him a top cruiser weight AT, especially at the old limit.

What is not overrated about him are his chin, heart and stamina. They are beyond question. He punched hard but I think he is a little overrated in single punch. I really think he does not tower over almost everyone else for punching power as often advertised; he towers over them for his ability to punch hard and often all the way with almost every punch wince-worthy if it lands. His pure boxing ability is 2 out of 10, 1 being a novice. He did what he did well and gets a 10 for that narrow window. Of course he has no versatility and only one fight plan of go get 'em, tiger.

Do I think he could take the punches of Wilder? I think that would be too much to ask. I don't think any 190 lbs fighter could.

I am just wondering, has anyone ever seen a glass jaw on a man with huge traps?

How do you overrate 925ft-lbs?

How do you even justify 925ft-lbs coming from a human let alone a human only 185 pounds?

How can you assume a man can throw out more energy regardless of size?




Why wouldn't a 190 be able to handle Wilder's power? I don't understand what the assumption is here. I don't think it is possible for any human being to simple handle a perfect kinematic chain at any size but I don't understand how a 190 is meant to have any deficit in chin compared to a 290 or any other absurdity in weight. Not being a ****, honest question, do you know how bone density works?





Bob Sapp, Huge traps, goes down with the first slap. Not a boxer though.





Boxing, if some of youse don't know, is essentially sword fighting without the sword. The techniques and traditions and such, a lot of it came from sword fighting and it really is not hard to see. Hit and don't get hit back = rapier and dagger. Hit me I hit back harder = sword and shield.

In that mixing of ideas there is bound to be lost truths.

There are frequency KOs. There is an answer to power that can just as easily cut off the lights as power does using the same exact physical effect on the brain is a different way. I don't ever see it thrown out there as any justification, but, there are these guys who seem to defy conventional wisdom for how they are able to put a man to sleep seemingly while at a power deficit.


Just putting it out there. Assuming you've seen hundreds of KOs out there, it is statistically impossible for them to have never shown a frequency KO, you have seen it and you did not notice the difference and so, it is likely, the answers youse seek for explaining yourselves is in front of you face while you lack the eyes and knowledge to understand it.




Not saying Rock was a frequency based artist. What I am saying is it is never brought up. There is only ever the argument of his power based on his films. No one wants to deal with the inhuman 925. No one has any alternative logic, it's just "look, you see what I see?" Oh, No? we argue den" over and over again. boringly.

[Anomalocaris]

Marciano was a grear cruiser. I would rank him just after Holy and Usk wirh Patterson 4th.

I stil rank Joe Louis as a small heavy because his technique was so beautifully superb.

But prime Liston would have deposited all of them on Pluto.

[Marchegiano]

Skeletal Stress: Larger sizes place more stress on bones and joints, leading to a higher risk of fractures, arthritis, and other orthopedic issues.

Cardiovascular Strain: The heart and circulatory system must work harder to pump blood throughout a larger body, increasing the risk of heart disease and hypertension.

Metabolic Demand: A larger body requires more energy to sustain itself, which can strain metabolic processes and lead to complications

Respiratory Limitations: Larger bodies need more oxygen, placing increased demands on the respiratory system.�

[Mr Mitts]

How do you overrate 925ft-lbs?

How do you even justify 925ft-lbs coming from a human let alone a human only 185 pounds?

How can you assume a man can throw out more energy regardless of size?




Why wouldn't a 190 be able to handle Wilder's power? I don't understand what the assumption is here. I don't think it is possible for any human being to simple handle a perfect kinematic chain at any size but I don't understand how a 190 is meant to have any deficit in chin compared to a 290 or any other absurdity in weight. Not being a ****, honest question, do you know how bone density works?





Bob Sapp, Huge traps, goes down with the first slap. Not a boxer though.





Boxing, if some of youse don't know, is essentially sword fighting without the sword. The techniques and traditions and such, a lot of it came from sword fighting and it really is not hard to see. Hit and don't get hit back = rapier and dagger. Hit me I hit back harder = sword and shield.

In that mixing of ideas there is bound to be lost truths.

There are frequency KOs. There is an answer to power that can just as easily cut off the lights as power does using the same exact physical effect on the brain is a different way. I don't ever see it thrown out there as any justification, but, there are these guys who seem to defy conventional wisdom for how they are able to put a man to sleep seemingly while at a power deficit.


Just putting it out there. Assuming you've seen hundreds of KOs out there, it is statistically impossible for them to have never shown a frequency KO, you have seen it and you did not notice the difference and so, it is likely, the answers youse seek for explaining yourselves is in front of you face while you lack the eyes and knowledge to understand it.




Not saying Rock was a frequency based artist. What I am saying is it is never brought up. There is only ever the argument of his power based on his films. No one wants to deal with the inhuman 925. No one has any alternative logic, it's just "look, you see what I see?" Oh, No? we argue den" over and over again. boringly.

Yep, Bob Sapp! I should have thought of him. Ricky Hatton could knock him out.

But I once read an article on Ricky which said he punched with enough force to fell some kind of big animal. I forget what it was but I think it was a bull. I don't have it or remember where I saw it. It gave a large number for his punch force too, which I don't remember either but was probably ridiculous. I seem to think it was 12 or 13 hundred, but could be way off on the number. All to say such stories of fist force are often apocryphal but never official.

I said he punched hard. He was a hard puncher. But F=MA, and Rocky had less of both quantities on the right side of the equation to work with. We already know he was on the slow side, so there goes Acceleration, and we also know he weighed less than 190, which is less Mass to put into a punch.

This extra-super punching force would have to come from somewhere else. The only thing left that I can think of is more technical refinement of punching form and weight transfer. Maybe Goldman did not want to take too many chances interfering with his natural power--just enough instruction where he needed it most. He saw he had no tap dancer here. The boy already had power. He was even awkwardly good with weight transfer. Coming out of a squat you can do that. Now we will do what we can with the ballerina in him--but not too much! He has a chin like an anvil. I wanna work on is left and his clumsy feet. All imagination of course, except for the first two sentences.

He got a lot of body leverage already but may have hit even a little harder with more technique training. Or... would he? Goldman knew Rock already hit hard enough for what was out there. And Charlie knew exactly what was out there.

Given that Rock is not going to be able to punch faster or gain a bunch of weight, he can still in effect gain mass secondhand by increased body leverage. The thing is, he was already putting close to everything he had on his punches. He fought three ATGs but everybody knows they were old and their targeting systems, speed, reflexes and stamina had declined--and likely their old chins too! It doesn't matter that much that they were highly ranked at the time--they were still the best of a rotten field is all, but in truth had declined significantly. Most of the rest of Rock's competition was lamb on the hoof.

A heavy criterion for me is one punch KOs. I believe they mean real power most of the time, especially early when the opponent is fresh. He KOd a lot of early scrubs but I don't if they were with one punch... The first fighter he met even good enough to have a record listed on Boxrec was Harry Harry Haft, an Auschwitz survivor who had a 1 year pro career in the U.S. of A. Marciano threw him in the trash in three. Ted Lowry had already been a pro for 16 years when Rocky decisioned him twice. Not exactly in his prime.

Rocky's first KO of Walcott landed on a famous fighter but not a famous chin. Joe was KOd 6 times in his career. He had been a pro for 22 and 23 years when Rocky got to him. The 2nd fight does not even count as a show of great PP except to show that Rock beat everything out of Joe the first time and Joe did absolutely does not want to fight. Beat before he even stepped in the ring, looking for the first opportunity to be stopped rather than go through that hell again.

In another post sometime I will credit Rock's merits and advantages. This one got kind of long.