The Top 20 All-Time Greatest P4P List

[mrbig1]

I'm glad we can talk boxing without the name calling. Everyone has great points of view. Plus, I wake and bake this morning so I'm having a groovy day.

[edgarg]

This is my top 20 list, which will remain fluid, that way adjustments can be made over time.

1- Ray Robinson

2- Willie Pep

3- Archie Moore

4- Ezzard Charles

5- Harry Greb

6- Roberto Duran

7- Manny Pacquiao

8- Barney Ross

9- Benny Leonard

10- Sam Langford

11- Mickey Walker

12- Henry Armstrong

13- Ike Williams

14- Jake LaMotta

15- Jack Dempsey

16- Tiger Flowers

17- Tony Canzoneri

18- Ray Leonard

19- Roy Jones Jr

20- Emile Griffith

Plenty of honorable mentions who can easily be rotated on or off the list. In no particular order:

Jose Napoles
Pernell Whitaker
Julio Cesar Chavez Sr
Michael Spinks
Sammy Angott
Joe Louis
Jimmy McLarnin
Joe Gans
Charley Burley
Sandy Saddler
Holman Williams
Gene Tunney

Post up your lists!

Griffith, Flowers, LaMotta Flowers, Langford Charles, Ray Leonard, shouldn't be on that list, maybe ont eh second list. Moore should be much lower, Benny Leonard should be a bit higher than Barney Ross.

Jimmy Wilde should be there in the top 5, Marcel Cerdan should be there, Niccolino Locche should be there. Jack Johnson, unbeatable for 10 years, should be there. Ted "Kid" Lewis COULD be there (the best British boxer in History) . I'm sure there are more but it's a hell of a job to make a list. I'm not sure that MannyP should,be so high, rather much lower and Roy Jones much higher.

[edgarg]

Lists are always going to be subjective and up for debate. To shed some light on my selection, I place Moore above Charles because Moore was more durable, had 100 more fights than Charles, and was a more nuanced fighter. Not by a wide margin, but I felt he could make adjustments during a fight just a tad better.

Leonard’s career was a bit too short, and I felt he had a couple of gift decisions during his career because of his star appeal.

Walker was competitive from 147 all the way to HW. Same as Langford. Sam was a natural middleweight fighting much larger men. Defeated some of the best names of his era from middleweight to heavyweight.

Greb also fought all comers. From 160 - 175+. Only man to beat Tunney (on record, outside of the long count fight) and one of two who fought him to a draw. This while blind in one eye.

Tommy Burns was easily comparable to Langford although naturally lighter. . His 8 consecutive O title defences out of 13 defences, still stands as a record. And Langford was only a natural middleweight earlier in his career, his natural weight when he matured was about 175-185. He had one of the most peculiar builds imaginable. a barrel with legs. and a 74" reach.

[edgarg]

Solid list. Cant argue with most of those names. The reason I dont rate Ali or Johnson on a P4P basis, is because I dont think their success would carry over onto other weigh classes. Ali did too many things wrong from a technical perspectivehands at his sides, leaning back from punches, rope a dope, no body attack, etc., which works against slow heavyweights and smaller opponents but not when all things are equal in lower divisions. Same with Johnson. The key to much of his success was his distinct size advantage over most of his opponents.

You are wrong. Johnson was only 6 ft tall. he fought much taller, and others perhaps an inch or two shorter. As has been said he revolutionised boxing, was unbeatable for over 10 years, from his early KO loss to Joe Choynski until the 26th rd collapse under the record blazing sun inn 1915 was never KO'd or even looked like losing. He could do things that present day boxers don't know a thing about, as well as being able to do what today's boxers do. He had all the shots , KO power when he wanted to and more. He was a GREAT heavyweight. close to the top.

[edgarg]

There will be plenty wrong with this list, I'm sure. But I will keep it to five criteria: 1) Eye-test/H2H; 2) Record; 3) Innovation; 4) Precociousness/Longevity; 5) SIZE

1) Greb
2) Duran
3) Lomachenko
4) Robinson
5) Pep
6) Armstrong
7) Walker
8) Jofre
9) Canzoneri
10) SRL
11) Loughran
12) Whitaker
13) Leonard
14) McLarnin
15) Harada
16) Conn
17) Ross
18) Langford
19) McFarland
20) Dempsey


On the cusp (probably in this order): Floyd Mayweather, Gene Tunney, Terry McGovern, Ike Williams, Carlos Monzon, Ezzard Charles, Tommy Hearns, Muhammad Ali, Alexis Arguello, Archie Moore, Charley Burley, Joe Louis, Jose Napoles, Miguel Canto, Rocky Marciano, Ruben Olivares, Holman Williams, Joe Walcott, Carlos Ortiz, Emile Griffith, Evander Holyfield, Manny Pacquiao, Johnny Kilbane, Benny Lynch

That actually rounds it out to about 40. And that' leaves a lot of tremendous, tremendous fighters unmentioned.

Even w/in weight divisions it's difficult to establish a top 10.
Feathweight is a great example:
- Saddler beat Pep, but he beat a greatly reduced version of Pep. He also employed his size and ridiculously dirty tactics to achieve those victories. He was often being out-boxed, but his fouling eventually got to the smaller Pep.

- Then you have a guy like Sanchez who looks AMAZING on film, against less than stellar competition. He never got to fight Pedroza, and that fight was considered a 50-50. His best test lay yet ahead of him, he certainly never proved himself Featherweight king.

- Miller and Kilbane, conversely, don't give us much footage to work with, and look more "primitive", but had amazing title reigns. Something Sal couldn't dream of touching.

- saldivar is an even more extreme version, of Miller and Kilbane. Impressive title reign, but the division was probably at its historic low.

- Jim Driscoll, on the other hand, NEVER wore the Featherweight belt, but was for many years that division's best... and maybe one of the very best P4P. This, unlike during Saldivar's reign, was when the division really meant something. Is Ben Roethlisberger and all his rings a better QB than Dan Marino? Was he even the best QB of his own era?

- How do you rank a fistic marvel like McGovern? This was probably his best weight. He trashed Gans: an accomplishment NO featherweight has ever come close to matching. But shortly after unraveled against Corbett II.

- And what about Lomachenko? Dare we say, he even exceeds Pep based on the footage. He probably is the best natural 126 pound fighter ever.... but he only has a few fights in the division.

McGovern was years younger, held the whip hand. Gans was black and needy. McGovern insisted that Gans weigh in at ringside just before fight time, completely dressed in his day clothes, and not more than 132 lbs. In those days they could arbitrarily change the weight limit, make any conditions they wanted to.. Gans already had had 120 fights. Gans was "KO'd" in rd 2, and said that he threw the fight because of the impossible conditions.

[edgarg]

Robinson gets my top spot for several reasons. A career that spanned twenty years, 201 fights and only once stopped inside the distance due to heat exhaustion. Passes eyeball test with flying colors. Dangerous with both hands and could fight and counter moving backwards. Impeccable footwork. Already had about 150 by the time he faced Basilio, Fulmer, and Olson. Most fighters would have been shot by then.

Charles and Moore have incredible resumes and were highly skilled. Moore had 220 fights, only stopped 7 times and most of those were after his first 150 fights. Each shared the ring with some of boxings greatest LHW and HWs.

The Pacquiao PED accusations were unfounded and only used by Floyd in an effort to avoid him at his best. I considered putting him at #10, and he may very well end up there.

Flowers was a great MW, twice defeated Greb. Went the distance with Rosenbloom a few times and Walker, all while blind in one eye.

LaMotta went the distance with Sugar 5x, one win and arguably robbed at least once. He fight several of the black murderers row members that Robinson himself refused to fight. Marshall, Lytell, Reeves. Defeated LHW contender Satterfield later in his career. Great defensive fighter.

You put together a great list yourself. I noticed you list Greb as your #1, yet also list the eyeball test as your first criteria. But there is no footage of any of a Grebs fights.

Robinson's career was over 25 years, not 20. And at one time his record was 128-1-2 draws. When he fought Maxim he weighed 157 lbs, Maxim got into the ring weighing 185. Whne Robinson collapsed in the 13th rd, comfortable ahead, he weighed 147 exactly. Maxim spent most of his time leaning on him. Good tactics, but Robinson had him beaten. in at least one of his fights with LaMotta he weighed 17 lbs less that LaM and beat him.. In all his LaMotta fights he was never more than a welterweight.

[edgarg]

While I criticize Robinson for feasting on men half his size, and completely flat-lined against Maxim. Many of his fights against LaMotta occurred when Ray was an active Ww.

Eventually Ray filled into his frame (and continued to feast on smaller men), but LaMotta's win over Ray in the rematch was owed to Ray trying his luck by bringing the fight to the much larger LaMotta.

Before that, he had handedly outboxed LaMotta. Just like fellow Ww Fritizie Zivic.

I really struggle to make LaMotta a top 15 middleweight, let alone top 15 P4P.

What do you mean Robinson "feasting on men half his size". They have weight classes you know and whoever fought Robinson was at the time a welterweight.. When you throw bombs like that, you should at least give a half dozen examples.

[edgarg]

Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong
Cassius Clay
Archie Moore
Bernard Hopkins
Ray Leonard
Floyd Mayweather
Charlie Burley
Pernell Whitaker
Evander Holyfield
Azumah Nelson
Aaron Pryor
Larry Holmes
Roy Jones
Tommy Hearns
Sam Langford
Marvin Hagler
Mike Tyson
Bob Foster
Sandy Saddler

After the top two, the next 6 are about the worst list on the board. Mayweather couldn't even black the boots of any of the top 100 The guy who never fought anyone he didn't have a big advantage over. . Hopkins..Oy Veh...!! Who the hell is Hopkins....A good laugh anyway. and a great "actor".....

[edgarg]

We need to start talking about Fury as a top 20 P4P fighter. As probably the only person here who's competed athletically at the collegiate level, I can tell you, seeing a 250 pound man move like that is incredible.

You're not that only person who competed at "collegiate level" I certainly did, for 3 full years. And won all but one fight.

[Willie Pep 229]

You are wrong. Johnson was only 6 ft tall. he fought much taller, and others perhaps an inch or two shorter. As has been said he revolutionised boxing, was unbeatable for over 10 years, from his early KO loss to Joe Choynski until the 26th rd collapse under the record blazing sun inn 1915 was never KO'd or even looked like losing. He could do things that present day boxers don't know a thing about, as well as being able to do what today's boxers do. He had all the shots , KO power when he wanted to and more. He was a GREAT heavyweight. close to the top.

There was no 'record breaking sun' in Havana on April 4th 1915. Low 70s, overcast sky, with a high humidity mading the air thick and hard to breathe.