The Top 20 All-Time Greatest P4P List

[Ivich]

Your buddy edgard believes Johnson was at his best at 190. You say 208, but what is almost universally agreed upon is that Johnson was a better version of himself than the other three were of themselves.

Johnson said he was in the best shape of his life when he fought Jeffries,for which fight he was 208lbs .If we take the guestimate weights for both Johnson and Langford when they met,we have Johnson at 185lbs.Langford at 156lbs.
That would mean Johnson was23lbs short of his optimum weight.
If we take Clay Moyle's ,[the acknowledged expert on Sam] opinion that Langford's optimum weight was between175lbs and 180lbs then he was between19 and 24lbs below his optimum weight.
As far as experience goes Langford had more fights under his belt than Johnson when they met. They fought in1906 Johnson was two years away from winning the title and had yet to meet.
Lang
Fitzsimmons
Flynn
Burns
O Brien
Ketchel
Jeffries
Moran
Fighters usually improve when they win a worlds title,do you think Johnson was an exception?

[Ivich]

Factor in skill to the equation. As discussed many times, Jeannette and McVey were novices when they fought Johnson. McKetrick and Jeannette both claim he was 165 when he fought Johnson. You can actually see the size disparity between Johnson and Flynn in the ring.

Do you believe Jeannette and McKetrick about Jeannette's weight?
Jeannette's last fight with Johnson was on the 26th of November 1906 for which fight he and his manager say he weighed 165lbs.
On the 15th of May 1907 Jeannette scaled 185lbs to fight Sam McVey. Do you believe he put on 20lbs in 6 months?
Bear in mind that on the 14th of March 1906 for his fight withJjohnson Jeannette stepped on the scales and they registered 185lbs!
So in March 1906 he is 185lbs,then according to him in November of the same year he loses 20lbs to challenge Johnson for his Colored Title? Then 6 months later, in May 1907 to fight McVey he is back up to185lbs?

Flynn scaled 193lbs for his title fight with Johnson . How many of the previous heavyweight champions challengers scaled that heavy? Why do you single out Johnson ?

212 lbs beat 193 lbs by DQ in round 9 of 45

[GhostofDempsey]

Johnson said he was in the best shape of his life when he fought Jeffries,for which fight he was 208lbs .If we take the guestimate weights for both Johnson and Langford when they met,we have Johnson at 185lbs.Langford at 156lbs.
That would mean Johnson was23lbs short of his optimum weight.
If we take Clay Moyle's ,[the acknowledged expert on Sam] opinion that Langford's optimum weight was between175lbs and 180lbs then he was between19 and 24lbs below his optimum weight.
As far as experience goes Langford had more fights under his belt than Johnson when they met. They fought in1906 Johnson was two years away from winning the title and had yet to meet.
Lang
Fitzsimmons
Flynn
Burns
O Brien
Ketchel
Jeffries
Moran
Fighters usually improve when they win a worlds title,do you think Johnson was an exception?

It was still a cruiser weight versus a near Jr. Middleweight. Usyk vs. Lara. Competitive?

[mrbig1]

The title of this thread is top 20 p4p all time. There are so many great champions. I don't see Johnson being on that list. Clay beating Liston or Ali beating Foreman is a much bigger deal than Johnson beating Burns.

[Ivich]

It was still a cruiser weight versus a near Jr. Middleweight. Usyk vs. Lara. Competitive?

Have I ever suggested otherwise?
No it wasn't competitive.
Johnson floored Langford twice for long nine counts and broke his nose.
Did I include it among Johnson's best wins?No.
What were the weight disparities when Jeffries fought the following?
Fitz 1.39lbs 1.37lbs
Corbett1 30lbs 2. 27lbs
Choynsky 52lbs
Sharkey27lbs
Finnegan 69lbs

Tyson Fury?

Wilder1.44lbs. 2.42lbs. 3.39lbs.
Chisora 1.44lbs
Seferi. 66lbs

Why single out Johnson who was the lighter man in many of his fights?
We know the reason don't we.HATE.

[Ivich]

The title of this thread is top 20 p4p all time. There are so many great champions. I don't see Johnson being on that list. Clay beating Liston or Ali beating Foreman is a much bigger deal than Johnson beating Burns.

Do you judge P4P on the basis of one fight?
Everyone I know does it on their body of work.
Johnson would not be on my 20 P3P either ,neither would any heavyweight with the exception of Ali ,and he would be towards the bottom of the 20.

[QueensburyRules]

Do you believe Jeannette and McKetrick about Jeannette's weight?
Jeannette's last fight with Johnson was on the 26th of November 1906 for which fight he and his manager say he weighed 165lbs.
On the 15th of May 1907 Jeannette scaled 185lbs to fight Sam McVey. Do you believe he put on 20lbs in 6 months?
Bear in mind that on the 14th of March 1906 for his fight withJjohnson Jeannette stepped on the scales and they registered 185lbs!
So in March 1906 he is 185lbs,then according to him in November of the same year he loses 20lbs to challenge Johnson for his Colored Title? Then 6 months later, in May 1907 to fight McVey he is back up to185lbs?

Flynn scaled 193lbs for his title fight with Johnson . How many of the previous heavyweight champions challengers scaled that heavy? Why do you single out Johnson ?

212 lbs beat 193 lbs by DQ in round 9 of 45

- - U in the wrong sport if looking for any sorta of consistency in boxing who's beginnings were notable generations of time of exceeding primitive regulations if not an out and out outlaw sport and everything in between that.

Even when US fully regulations started some time in the 1920s with Jack Dempsey as such a phenom that authorities had no choice but to bow to the will of the people sans even a plebiscite vote, boxing continued on the path of poorly regulations whilst remaining so exquisitely exploitable and unorganized that attracted a host of nefarious evil doers and sociopaths littering the landscape that always seem to outnumber the honorable icons of the sport.

Refer to the current Ring Hvy champ, currently 6 years with a defense record of those 6 years of 1+1=2 total defenses.

[mrbig1]

Do you judge P4P on the basis of one fight?
Everyone I know does it on their body of work.
Johnson would not be on my 20 P3P either ,neither would any heavyweight with the exception of Ali ,and he would be towards the bottom of the 20.

Agree with everything you wrote. I'm not judging Johnson on one fight. if we look at his biggest fights they were either old or very small. If Mike Tyson beat Marvin Hagler would that make him great? Once again Johnson was a great fighter. There is no doubt about that. Race hurt him but in some ways it helped him. Just hear me out. Johnson was a money maker for Tex Rickard. Johnson fought Jim Johnson. Jack said he broke his arm and couldn't continue but he kept his title. I don't think I know where or when that has ever happen.

[QueensburyRules]

Agree with everything you wrote. I'm not judging Johnson on one fight. if we look at his biggest fights they were either old or very small. If Mike Tyson beat Marvin Hagler would that make him great? Once again Johnson was a great fighter. There is no doubt about that. Race hurt him but in some ways it helped him. Just hear me out. Johnson was a money maker for Tex Rickard. Johnson fought Jim Johnson. Jack said he broke his arm and couldn't continue but he kept his title. I don't think I know where or when that has ever happen.

- - >>>>> Fury on steroids fought Wlad. Said said he couldn't contractually meet the signed rematch because he broke his brain, but kept his ill earned Ring title that he never defended much less defended his belts that were quickly stripped as JJohnson's was briefly by the French in Gay Paree.

It Happens, and It always Happened, and forevermore It shall continue to Happen.

[GhostofDempsey]

Have I ever suggested otherwise?
No it wasn't competitive.
Johnson floored Langford twice for long nine counts and broke his nose.
Did I include it among Johnson's best wins?No.
What were the weight disparities when Jeffries fought the following?
Fitz 1.39lbs 1.37lbs
Corbett1 30lbs 2. 27lbs
Choynsky 52lbs
Sharkey27lbs
Finnegan 69lbs

Tyson Fury?

Wilder1.44lbs. 2.42lbs. 3.39lbs.
Chisora 1.44lbs
Seferi. 66lbs

Why single out Johnson who was the lighter man in many of his fights?
We know the reason don't we.HATE.

I’ve never claimed either Jeffries or Fury were or are all time greats. So no, I didn’t single out Johnson.