The Top 20 All-Time Greatest P4P List

[mrbig1]

The story I heard was Tex Rickard wouldn't promote the fight nor many cities wouldn't hold the fight because of Johnson vs Jeffries.

[JAB5239]

You would have advised Wills to walk away from the Tunney fight and a possible shot at the title just to make a point above being cheated years earlier?

He had been the top contender for 5 years. Why should he have had to jump thru yet another hoop? It's rather obvious Dempsey and or his camp wanted nothing to do with this fight, and it had nothing to do with money

[GhostofDempsey]

Johnson's refusal to fight those guys when he bacme champ had nothing to do with them, but all about money , racial prejudice, his making the most of being aggravatingto whites, who paid the money to se him get betaen. No black boxer then had a chance with him.

McCallum, was not a boxing specialist writer, but a sports writer. He didn't start writing anything, least of all, boxing, until about 6-8 years before Burns died. So how accurate would he have been?? Burns was NOT the worst heavyweight champ by a long shot. Many said Marvin Hart was. Others had different choices. They all had opinions, not facts. I never saw any such criticism of Burns. who had 13 defences all but 2 were KOs. An unbeaten RECORD of 11 successive KOs in Title matches, and 4th most defences. In those days there was only ONE champion per div. as you know, so no small feat.

He beat Marvin Hart, 6 ft tall, for the Title. Jim Jefferies ref. Hart KOd Jack Root the #1 contender in 12, who had beaten Hart before. . Burns defended against the best available including a Jack Dempsey later opponent Fireman Jim Flynn, whom he KO'd twice.. He was small, but a killer punch and very difficult. Johnson toyed with him , as he did with everyone. Too many urban legends about everybody.

I vaguely recall that Fleischer article you mention, that he wasn't showing it to show old champions ineptness, but the deficiencies in camera filming of those days. They only had the speed to take 1 frame in 5-6. so everything, no matter how dolled up, missed out most of the action. and they often looked like puppets on a string. The descriptions of boxing writers were far more accurate, and it is those that I pay attention to..

I didn't say Johnson was not often (much ?) larger than his opponents, I said he was 6 ft' tall, generally given as 6' and half an inch. No Galveston "Giant". Most heavyweights then were around 5'10-11. Langford was about 5'7" and the exact statistics of Tommy Burns including the same 74" reach but heavier.. Johnson, although only 6 ft. was extremely muscular and fabulously strong.
And NO PEDS....

.If you read about Johnson's upbringing, you'll se how he got that way. Life was very hard for everyone then, but especially blacks. His father was a freed slave, who worked for the Union Army as a driver. And Johnson said he was the very strongest man he ever knew. So I suppose genetics also come into it.

For the Johnson "fight", (some said 180 ) Langford was reputed" to be 165 -70., His best fighting weight then, and Johnson 189.. You can't deny that Johnson just played with him. Langford had already had about 60 fights was NO novice and 20 years old. A prime age for those times. Langford as a genuine heavyweight actually was 185 lbs -all muscle, but much lighter for the Johnson fight.,

No matter our opinions differ, I just think that Langford's reputation in (long) AFTER life was influenced by the amount of fights he was credited with, and that he was found in dire poverty, blind quietly resigned to his lot, etc. that's all. He was never short of fights, was he...??

I feel that you do not take into account the kind of life available to black boxers then. I DO, I had an uncle born in 1876, who lived to be 97 and was a part -time carnival boxer, and a friend of Burns' black sparring partner, whom he met during Burns' Jem Roche "fight" in Dublin at the Theatre Royal (the owners were friends of my parents). The sparring partner was sick in bed then, and left behind, where he stayed for the rest of his life. At that time he was the only black man in Dublin. So I know a bit about what went on in those days with boxing, but obviously not all, nor the worst parts.

I met him when he was a very old man. He even came down to our club and presented us with some ancient equipment like sagging 5 oz boxing gloves, Leather helmets etc. I should have taken them home as collectors items but was far too young, to know what' what then.

Not the first of last time I differ with another. No harm..

Johnson couldn't risk losing to the likes of Langford, McVey or Jeannette once they became seasoned fighters. Could he have beaten them again as champion? Maybe, but they had become increasingly difficult for him with each passing fight, and his last fight with Jeannette was a draw. Speaking of Hart, if he was the worst HW champion, he certainly had enough to beat Jack Johnson.

If we are going to quibble about McCallum not being a dedicated boxing writer, which were far and few between back then, we would have to dismiss the articles written by many a sportswriter of the era. There were non-boxing writers who thought Johnson beat Hart, do we dismiss them too?

Fleischer adjusted the speed of the film to show the audience how these old time fighters looked in real-time, versus the choppy, fast film reels that depicted them differently. When the film was adjusted it revealed a very crude and unpolished boxing style of many of these fighters recognized as ATGs. If we watch what limited film is available on McVey, Jeannette, Wills, Jeffries, we see a lot of holding, leaning back, wrestling, and poor footwork. What they lacked in finesse they made up for with brute strength and stamina.

Again, Johnson had a 6 - 7" height advantage over Langford, and at a minimum a 30 - 40 pound weight advantage. He also had the edge in experience. Langford became a far improved fighter in the years since that loss, and fought about 15 - 20 pounds heavier at his best. Many of Johnson's fight saw him well over 200 pounds, closer to 220 - 230, and not just towards the end of his career. At the time they fought, Johnson vs. Langford would be the equivalent of Holyfield vs. Hagler, hardly a fair contest or a very compelling one.

I do take into account the racial disparities of the times. Which is why I felt Johnson was caught between a rock and hard place. He wanted the money and glory that came with being HW champ, but he didn't want to risk his title against the best black fighters of his era while champion. For all of the non-boxing writers who wrote of his dominance and prowess, there was also testimonies of Jack Blackburn getting the best of him in a sparring match and busting his nose. Or the time Harry Wills worked him over in sparring and was banned from ever sparring with Johnson again or getting a fight with him. The only time Johnson offered a black man, Battling Jim Johnson, a title fight was an undeserving contender and former Dempsey sparring partner who was already defeated by the fighters Johnson ducked as champion. A cherry pick gone wrong that ended in a draw, which Johnson blamed on a shoulder injury in the ring.

[Willie Pep 229]

He had been the top contender for 5 years. Why should he have had to jump thru yet another hoop? It's rather obvious Dempsey and or his camp wanted nothing to do with this fight, and it had nothing to do with money

That is not obvious - Dempsey tried to make it happen through Fitzsimmons in Chicago but it didn't work out.

Had Wills defeated Tunney he would have taken away the challenger Rickard used instead of Wills.

There were no other challengers available that could bring as big a gate as Tunney or Wills.

After Dempsey lost to Tunney in '26, Rickard (in the week between Tunney-Dempsey and Wills-Sharkey) announced that Dempsey would be matched against Wills in Yankee Stadium next summer. Rickard was always afraid of the natch because he couldn't bare the thought of repeating the Johnson fiasco and all the money it cost everyone. But with the title now gone Rickard was ready to make the match.

Dempsey said OK to the fight to Rickard but then Wills got spanked by Sharkey and Sharkey got the fight instead.

Wills should have removed Tunney from the picture and forced Rickard's hand.

Standing on principle gets you nothing; Wills was in a position to force the issue but instead he remained passive.

Would Langford have jumped at the chance to fight Tunney, ask yourself what he would have done.

Was Wills a fighter or a celebrity? It looks as though Wills got full of himself and let the opportunity slip away.

Many others had to battle their way to a title shot even when they thought they already deserved it, yet they fought on and made themselves the inevitability; Wills wouldn't so he got nothing.

[JAB5239]

That is not obvious - Dempsey tried to make it happen through Fitzsimmons in Chicago but it didn't work out.

Had Wills defeated Tunney he would have taken away the challenger Rickard used instead of Wills.

There were no other challengers available that could bring as big a gate as Tunney or Wills.

After Dempsey lost to Tunney in '26, Rickard (in the week between Tunney-Dempsey and Wills-Sharkey) announced that Dempsey would be matched against Wills in Yankee Stadium next summer. Rickard was always afraid of the natch because he couldn't bare the thought of repeating the Johnson fiasco and all the money it cost everyone. But with the title now gone Rickard was ready to make the match.

Dempsey said OK to the fight to Rickard but then Wills got spanked by Sharkey and Sharkey got the fight instead.

Wills should have removed Tunney from the picture and forced Rickard's hand.

Standing on principle gets you nothing; Wills was in a position to force the issue but instead he remained passive.

Would Langford have jumped at the chance to fight Tunney, ask yourself what he would have done.

Was Wills a fighter or a celebrity? It looks as though Wills got full of himself and let the opportunity slip away.

Many others had to battle their way to a title shot even when they thought they already deserved it, yet they fought on and made themselves the inevitability; Wills wouldn't so he got nothing.

Forced Rickards hand after 5 years? After five years of being the best available contender and never getting his shot I'm sure Wills wasn't very trusting of Dempsey and his team.

Just out of curiosity, can you name another fighter who was the number one contender that long and didn't get his shot for ANY reason? Off hand I cannot. And to me, that is very telling of the Wills/Dempsey situation.

Wills forced the position for five years while Dempsey fought lesser fighter, some who he had already knocked out.

[QueensburyRules]

Forced Rickards hand after 5 years? After five years of being the best available contender and never getting his shot I'm sure Wills wasn't very trusting of Dempsey and his team.

Just out of curiosity, can you name another fighter who was the number one contender that long and didn't get his shot for ANY reason? Off hand I cannot. And to me, that is very telling of the Wills/Dempsey situation.

Wills forced the position for five years while Dempsey fought lesser fighter, some who he had already knocked out.

- - U d00d00 dum better than anyone.

Ring ratings debut 1924 and Jack had already disposed of top fighters Tommy Gibbons and Luis Firpo. Wills a top name had disposed no top fighters.

1926 top fighter Tunney beats Jack with top fighter Sharkey beating Wills . 1927 Jack beats top fighter Sharkey and then beat by Tunney. Meanwhile, Wills is done, no longer relevant and retires after Dempsey as Sharkey goes on to win a title.

[Willie Pep 229]

Forced Rickards hand after 5 years? After five years of being the best available contender and never getting his shot I'm sure Wills wasn't very trusting of Dempsey and his team.

Just out of curiosity, can you name another fighter who was the number one contender that long and didn't get his shot for ANY reason? Off hand I cannot. And to me, that is very telling of the Wills/Dempsey situation.

Wills forced the position for five years while Dempsey fought lesser fighter, some who he had already knocked out.

SRR ? Liston? Fitzsimmons (Yes), Corbett?

Remember #1 was a very new concept that didn't appear to the end of 1924.

But I know that you are referring as well to the newspaper poll of 1922.

Yes Wills had no reason to trust Dempsey but some reason to trust Rickard. But before I explain that let me restate my point as being that Wills needed to clear the field of all possible contenders, only then could he hope to force Rickard's hand i.e. $

Ring's Fleischer asked Rickard to create the very first Ring Rankings, (obviously playing the "I'm neutral guy" game and gaining from Rickard's prestige in the fight game.) But Fleischer had to make two changes to Rickard's rankings. Rickard had put Wills in the number one slot and Dempsey number two (arguing Dempsey's 1924 inactivity while Wills defeated Firpo). Fleischer corrected (solve his dilemma) by creating a champion category. Rickard has also dropped champion Benny Leonard to number two as well, for the same reason, inactivity. Fleischer moved both up to "Champion."

Second, Rickard made Wills 'rich' for his day. Getting him 124K for the Firpo fight and 90K plus for the Sharkey fight. (That 1924 season Babe Ruth made 60K.)

It wasn't cut and dry for Rickard as many today, like yourself, want to make it out to be . . . Rickard was scared of a 'colored' HW Champion.

Johnson had cost everybody money!

In 1924 a quarter of a million KKK members marched down Pennsylvania Avenue in protest of nothing. Congress had no new laws in the oven, the ************* held control of all three branches of government, but the KKK marched anyway. The KKK was protesting against nothing more than reformer rhetoric and were expressing their white supremacy.

Worst yet, in 1922 over 50K KKK members marched down Broadway in New York City, once again protesting nothing, just a show of political force.

1922, the same year as the public opinion poll mentioned above, the same year that Boston and New Jersey both announced they would not host mixed bouts. The same year that New York's Polo Grounds announced it was closed to all mixed bouts (that announcement would be reconsider once Tammany Hall got control of the City and was corting the 'Nergro' vote via Farley.)

It was not as cut and dry as you would like it to have been; you're judging the past by imposing today's social temperament onto a very, very racist 1920s society.

Wills had only had one shot at getting a 'shot at the title. He had to be the last man standing.

Judge the people involved by the realities of their own day not what you think it should have been.

[JAB5239]

Neither Robinson nor Liston were the top rated fighter for 5 years. You would have to show me definitive proof of Fitzsimmons and Corbett.

"Rickard was scared of a colored heavyweight champion. And there it is!!"

You say its not as cut and dry as id like it to be and the day was so racist, yet there were plenty of other mixed bouts and championships that were fought with no repercussions from the KKK.

You have every right to your opinion. I have every right to mine, and I disagree with you.

[Willie Pep 229]

Neither Robinson nor Liston were the top rated fighter for 5 years. You would have to show me definitive proof of Fitzsimmons and Corbett.

"Rickard was scared of a colored heavyweight champion. And there it is!!"

You say its not as cut and dry as id like it to be and the day was so racist, yet there were plenty of other mixed bouts and championships that were fought with no repercussions from the KKK.

You have every right to your opinion. I have every right to mine, and I disagree with you.

Not for the HW Championship that one was different . . . the whole number one thing didn't hold the same weight as it would later . . . Wills took the passive role when he should have steam rolled his way to a title shot . . . Johnson knew the reality facing him and chased Burns around the world.

Yea we really do differ on this one.

[JAB5239]

Not for the HW Championship that one was different . . . the whole number one thing didn't hold the same weight as it would later . . . Wills took the passive role when he should have steam rolled his way to a title shot . . . Johnson knew the reality facing him and chased Burns around the world.

Yea we really do differ on this one.

My problem with the idea of Wills having to force this fight is who did Tunney fight to force it? By my quick research Gene didn't fight a single too 10 heavyweight contender. I may be wrong, maybe I missed something. So how did he get elevated so highly to begin with, and why should Wills have to fight yet another fighter when he has been the top ranked contender and won a poll of fighters the public wanted to see Dempsey fight? Seems to me Jack had a history of fighting lightheavyweights and mistakenly chose the wrong one instead of fighting the man he should have been fighting to begin with. Just my take anyway.

Edit: Appearently the Gibbons fight was at heavyweight. This made me look a little deeper. Gibbons had lost to Dempsey in 1923 so I thought he may have earned back a top 10 heavyweight spot since that point. The only two names of note were Carpentier, which was contested at heavyweight (but George's has no wins over any top heavies that I see) and Kid Norfolk, a fight that was contested at lightheavy with Norfolk having already been stopped in 2 by Wills in 1922.