The Top 20 All-Time Greatest P4P List

[Ivich]

I'm not sure how that is the bottom line when it wasn't even the point being made. As far as the opinions of boxers and trainers from bye gone eras's......I'll certainly take their opinions on men we haven't seen fight over the opinion of any person who says they must not have been that good if there is no film.

But the underlined is not my position I'm just saying I would give certain trainers and fighters more credence than others.

[GhostofDempsey]

Griffith was the number 1 Ring ranked contender when Monzon defended against him and he would go on to beat **** Tiger.

Griffith fought Tiger a year prior to the Monzon fight. The year he first fought Monzon he was at welterweight. Already had well over 80 fights and around 33 or 34 years old. He was not the best version of himself fighting Monzon.

[Ivich]

Griffith fought Tiger a year prior to the Monzon fight. The year he first fought Monzon he was at welterweight. Already had well over 80 fights and around 33 or 34 years old. He was not the best version of himself fighting Monzon.

You are correct it was before but thats hows he still had a lot left imo and he was the number1 contender should Monzon have avoided him?

[GhostofDempsey]

You are correct it was before but thats hows he still had a lot left imo and he was the number1 contender should Monzon have avoided him?

I don't fault Monzon for fighting him. Not at all. I just think Griffith stands out on his resume with name recognition, but it wasn't the best version of Griffith. Kind of like Oscar beating Chavez.

[Ivich]

Griffith fought Tiger a year prior to the Monzon fight. The year he first fought Monzon he was at welterweight. Already had well over 80 fights and around 33 or 34 years old. He was not the best version of himself fighting Monzon.

No Griffith hadnt fought at welter for 2 years and prior to the Monzon fight he beat ranked middleweight contenders such as Bogs no5 Hayward no3, Baird no8,Guitteriez no 10 and he hadnt lost a fight for 3 years ,a split dec to no3 ranked Hayward later avenged. He deserved his shot against Monzon and later he still had enough juice to beat Bennie Briscoe.

[mrbig1]

Griffith, Napoles and Benvenuti were well passed their respective primes. Valdez was not a great fighter, nor did he ever beat one. Monzon was a good, gritty fighter, but he is highly regarded for his win/loss ratio and his MW title run, both of which were overrated IMO.

Benvenuti was MW champion and 32 years old. Monzon was 28. Monzon was older than Napoles. So no they were not past there prime.

[Ivich]

Washed up is a bit harsh, no? No doubt Arcel never got to work with 1923 Leonard, but his post 'crash' comeback Leonard was 21-1-0.

No doubt most if not all were ham and eggers - but in the end he ran into a ATG WW champion in Jimmy Mcclarin. Had there been a lesser WW champion in the slot at that time Leonard would have prevailed and then we would be over stating his come back prowess instead of under stating it. Such is the trap of all history.

But I think 'washed up' is too harsh.

Leonard's first bout after a seven-year retirement. He "is a pudgy, slow-footed old man of 35, making a desperate effort to recoup the fortune lost in stock speculation. The 15, 000 spectators who paid $25, 000 to witness Leonard's debut at Queensboro stadium were disappointed. They came to see their former old idol disprove the 'they never come back' axiom by a masterly exhibition of boxing skill. Benny scored his 'knockout' in the manner made famous - or infamous, if you will - by Primo Carnera. The spectators, who sat in stunned silence as the once unhittable Leonard had his face peppered red by an opponent who wouldn't have been considered worthy of carrying the gloves of the Leonard of a decade ago, greeted Silvers' 'dive' with boos and cat calls, and for the first time in his career, Leonard was hooted as he left the ring." (UP
Some of his comeback opponents.
Mike Sarlo 29-37-8 he fought him 3 times.
Willie Garafola 39-26-7
Jimmy Abbott 40-33-8
Phil Rafferty 12-10-7
Joe Trippe 47-41-13
Leonard's victory was booed as Trippe had gone down from little more than a slap and was seen shielding his eyes from the ring lights with his forearm while being counted out. No washed up is right.imo

[Willie Pep 229]

Leonard's first bout after a seven-year retirement. He "is a pudgy, slow-footed old man of 35, making a desperate effort to recoup the fortune lost in stock speculation. The 15, 000 spectators who paid $25, 000 to witness Leonard's debut at Queensboro stadium were disappointed. They came to see their former old idol disprove the 'they never come back' axiom by a masterly exhibition of boxing skill. Benny scored his 'knockout' in the manner made famous - or infamous, if you will - by Primo Carnera. The spectators, who sat in stunned silence as the once unhittable Leonard had his face peppered red by an opponent who wouldn't have been considered worthy of carrying the gloves of the Leonard of a decade ago, greeted Silvers' 'dive' with boos and cat calls, and for the first time in his career, Leonard was hooted as he left the ring." (UP
Some of his comeback opponents.
Mike Sarlo 29-37-8 he fought him 3 times.
Willie Garafola 39-26-7
Jimmy Abbott 40-33-8
Phil Rafferty 12-10-7
Joe Trippe 47-41-13
Leonard's victory was booed as Trippe had gone down from little more than a slap and was seen shielding his eyes from the ring lights with his forearm while being counted out. No washed up is right.imo

Why did you waste your time and my time writing all that down I said directly they were all ham and eggers until he got to McClarin.

Thanks for making my point.

Again, 'washed up' is harsh, but I can once again see you have it all figured out. So certainly the issue is settled, 'Leonard no good'

Happy now? Go have a cookie.

[Ivich]

Why did you waste your time and my time writing all that down I said directly they were all ham and eggers until he got to McClarin.

Thanks for making my point.

Again, 'washed up' is harsh, but I can once again see you have it all figured out. So certainly the issue is settled, 'Leonard no good'

Happy now? Go have a cookie.

You said if Leonard had met a less great welterweight champion he would have won the title and that is palpably not the case Arcel himself told George Kimball "Leonard was all through by then". It's not my fault you cant stand being corrected.BTW I rate Leonard number 1 at Light weight ,
Serious question. Are all the posters on here as rude,thin skinned, and juvenile as you and that POS Steak or are the sensible, mature posters all on vacation at the moment?

[Willie Pep 229]

You said if Leonard had met a less great welterweight champion he would have won the title and that is palpably not the case Arcel himself told George Kimball "Leonard was all through by then". It's not my fault you cant stand being corrected.BTW I rate Leonard number 1 at Light weight ,
Serious question. Are all the posters on here as rude,thin skinned, and juvenile as you and that POS Steak or are the sensible, mature posters all on vacation at the moment?

Yes we are you are correct you should stop posting immediately we're bringing you down.

BTW you just changed the jist of your post from weak competition to the championship fight.

Besides being pretentious you're obvious