Manny Pacqiuao a Top 25 all time great??

[IronDanHamza]

If he retired tomrrow I would have him at around 40.

If he beats Floyd About 35.

I agree, maybe a tad lower until he were to fight Floyd and beat him.

[pacquia0]

How is that? He only has 4 Lineal Titles out of 8 weight classes.

He didn't get THE best at 122, 135, 147 or 154.

Regardless to the fact Barrera once was the man at 122, he didn't fight him there thus didn't fight the best there.

In 2009 they were. But, he didn't fight them all in 2009, did he?

Who should Pacquiao fight at 122lbs then? He beats the #3 guy then the #2 guy loses in his next fight and the #1 guy moves up in weight(who he later beats).

Pacquiao beat David Diaz the #2 guy. He gets offered a fight with De La Hoya. You cant criticize him for taking a fight where he is the underdog instead of a fight against juan diaz where he would be a hevay favourite.

At 147 hes beaten Clottey, Cotto and will beat Mosley. He has to be considered the champ at this weight when he does that. Mayweather is on vacation, not Pacquiaos fault. Cotto was #2 when they fought. Clottey and Mosley are top 5.

You owe me a new pair of underwear I think I just pissed myself.

Explain why Joe Frazier and Hagler are greater than Pacquiao?

[Spartacus Sully]

Explain why Joe Frazier and Hagler are greater than Pacquiao?

why?

heres the list posted earlier of 25+ people no hagler no fraizer.
srr
louis
ali
Greb
Langford
Charles
Moore
Wilde
Monzon
Pep
Whitaker
Gans
B.Leonard
R.Leonard
Gavilan
Fitzsimmons
Griffith
Walker
Tunney
Jofre
Napoles
Ketchel
McLarnin
Duran
Walcott
Ross

[Barn]

Who should Pacquiao fight at 122lbs then? He beats the #3 guy then the #2 guy loses in his next fight and the #1 guy moves up in weight(who he later beats).

Pacquiao beat David Diaz the #2 guy. He gets offered a fight with De La Hoya. You cant criticize him for taking a fight where he is the underdog instead of a fight against juan diaz where he would be a hevay favourite.

At 147 hes beaten Clottey, Cotto and will beat Mosley. He has to be considered the champ at this weight when he does that. Mayweather is on vacation, not Pacquiaos fault. Cotto was #2 when they fought. Clottey and Mosley are top 5.



Explain why Joe Frazier and Hagler are greater than Pacquiao?

If you can pick out a quote where I said Frazier was greater than Pacquiao.

Dominance > Alphabet Soop.

[pacquia0]

If you can pick out a quote where I said Frazier was greater than Pacquiao.

Dominance > Alphabet Soop.

I understand your point but I disagree that Pacquiaos achievements are alphabet soup. Do you not see the fact that hes fought and beat top 3 guys in 7 weight classes.

#1 112lbs Sasakul
#3 122lbs Ledwaba. The #1 guy was MAB.
#1 126lbs MAB, JMM
#1 130lbs JMM, Top 5 Morales and MAB
#2 135lbs Diaz
#1 140lbs Hatton
#2 147lbs Cotto, Top 5 Clottey and Mosley(if he wins)

Name the people Pac should have fought instead ?

Hagler has the best single win in Hearns but I would argue Pacs opponents across 8 weight classes are better than Haglers. Then seen as though this is in a P4P list you give extra credit to Pac for beating bigger opponents.

[IronDanHamza]

Who should Pacquiao fight at 122lbs then? He beats the #3 guy then the #2 guy loses in his next fight and the #1 guy moves up in weight(who he later beats).

Pacquiao beat David Diaz the #2 guy. He gets offered a fight with De La Hoya. You cant criticize him for taking a fight where he is the underdog instead of a fight against juan diaz where he would be a hevay favourite.

At 147 hes beaten Clottey, Cotto and will beat Mosley. He has to be considered the champ at this weight when he does that. Mayweather is on vacation, not Pacquiaos fault. Cotto was #2 when they fought. Clottey and Mosley are top 5.

I don't knock Pacqiuao for fighting Lebadwa. For that stage of his career it was a good win. But, you can't claim he fought the best in that division because he simply didn't, regardless to the fact he beat Barrera at a later date.

Again, I don't criticize him for taking the De La Hoya fight. But, you can't claim the fought the best at 135 when he simply didn't.

No he won't be considered the man at 147 Lb's after that because he won't have beaten the #2 guy. Mosley was the Lineal Champion when he fought Cotto, had he fought Mosley over Cotto he would be considered the 'Man' at 147, but, he didn't, so he's not.

At 147 he has beaten Cotto #3, Clottey #4 and soon to be Mosley #4 currently will be #3 by the time they fight. That is not beating the best in your division.

So yeah, as incredible as his resume is. He hasn't fought the best in every division he has been in.

[Barn]

You give Hagler extra credit for dominating and making 14 title defences and beating anyone in the division at that time even pre-champ.

If Pacquiao beats Floyd he is drawing with Hagler or a little in front.
He wont though.

[IronDanHamza]

I understand your point but I disagree that Pacquiaos achievements are alphabet soup. Do you not see the fact that hes fought and beat top 3 guys in 7 weight classes.

#1 112lbs Sasakul
#3 122lbs Ledwaba. The #1 guy was MAB.
#1 126lbs MAB, JMM
#1 130lbs JMM, Top 5 Morales and MAB
#2 135lbs Diaz
#1 140lbs Hatton
#2 147lbs Cotto, Top 5 Clottey and Mosley(if he wins)

Name the people Pac should have fought instead ?

Hagler has the best single win in Hearns but I would argue Pacs opponents across 8 weight classes are better than Haglers. Then seen as though this is in a P4P list you give extra credit to Pac for beating bigger opponents.

He didn't beat Marquez at 126.

Diaz was #2 including the Lineal Champion thus #3.

You're counting the 3rd Barrera fight, which is silly.

His achievements aren't 'alphabet soup' but 4 out of his 8 weight classes, half of them were paper titles, that's the facts.

I personally felt Marquez beat him at 130 also but that's a matter of opinion and it was a close fight.

[IronDanHamza]

Name the people Pac should have fought instead ?.

Maybe Guzman at 130?

Casamayor at 135?

Mosley instead of Cotto in 2009?

He could have fought some better guys.

Not that it matters, really.

He would have more Lineages had he fougt those guys but I wouldn't of enhanced his legacy too muc, IMO.

[pacquia0]

I don't knock Pacqiuao for fighting Lebadwa. For that stage of his career it was a good win. But, you can't claim he fought the best in that division because he simply didn't, regardless to the fact he beat Barrera at a later date.

Again, I don't criticize him for taking the De La Hoya fight. But, you can't claim the fought the best at 135 when he simply didn't.

No he won't be considered the man at 147 Lb's after that because he won't have beaten the #2 guy. Mosley was the Lineal Champion when he fought Cotto, had he fought Mosley over Cotto he would be considered the 'Man' at 147, but, he didn't, so he's not.

At 147 he has beaten Cotto #3, Clottey #4 and soon to be Mosley #4 currently will be #3 by the time they fight. That is not beating the best in your division.

So yeah, as incredible as his resume is. He hasn't fought the best in every division he has been in.

Ledwaba was the #3 guy though. Pacquiao wasnt the undisputed best at this weight but when MAB moved up he was the best fighter at that weight.

David Diaz was the WBC champion and was the 2nd best in the division. Pacquiao would of beaten Juan Diaz with ease. Taking the fight with De La Hoya was the best move legacy and financial wise. You think Golden boy would allow Diaz to fight Pac after he rejects a fight with Oscar? Juan Diaz was going to get fed to JMM.

Cotto was with Top rank and the #2 guy in the division. Its not clear cut that Mosley is the best fighter in the division given that Cotto beat him. Cotto is also a bigger draw. Who should Pacquiao fight to be considered the best at 147? Mayweather isnt interested in fighting him. He would of beaten the best fighters at WW regardless of ranking.

You give Hagler extra credit for dominating and making 14 title defences and beating anyone in the division at that time even pre-champ.

If Pacquiao beats Floyd he is drawing with Hagler or a little in front.
He wont though.

Pacquiao fighting top competition across 7 weight classes requires more ability than dominating 1 weight class. If Hagler had beat Qawi or Spinks would that not be significantly better than a title defence ?

Pacquiao has beaten more ATGs and HOfers than Hagler.

He didn't beat Marquez at 126.

Diaz was #2 including the Lineal Champion thus #3.

You're counting the 3rd Barrera fight, which is silly.

His achievements aren't 'alphabet soup' but 4 out of his 8 weight classes, half of them were paper titles, that's the facts.

I personally felt Marquez beat him at 130 also but that's a matter of opinion and it was a close fight.

A scoring error about the KDs in the 1st round is what prevented him getting a decison over JMM. The Judge admitted to this mistake afterwards.

MAB was still a top fighter in that weight class. He was coming of a disputed loss to JMM.

There not paper titles, you have to consider the circumstances. Like I said before the only paper title is the one at 154.

Maybe Guzman at 130?

Casamayor at 135?

Mosley instead of Cotto in 2009?

He could have fought some better guys.

Not that it matters, really.

He would have more Lineages had he fougt those guys but I wouldn't of enhanced his legacy too muc, IMO.

Guzman fight could not be made due to Golden Boy/Top rank contractual dispute.

Casamayor was shot coming of a disputed win. David Diaz was a better fighter at this point in time.

So you criticise his opposition yet then say his standing wouldnt improve if he fought those guys.

His legacy like I said is built on beating top competition(top 3) across numerous weight classes. Imagine Pacquiao beat all this top 3 competition in 1 weight class. Hed be considered the GOAT at that class having beaten numerous ATGs and HOFers. You have to give credit to Pac for beating bigger opponents seen as though this is a P4P list.

When Pac was a 130lber. Did you think he could beat Hatton, Margarito, Mosley, De La Hoya and Cotto ? If you did then people would have considered you crazy.