How great was Jack Dempsey?

[Willow The Wisp]

The first two year hiatus was all Kearns' doing. He was trying to squeeze Fitzsimmons and Rickard out. Kearns wanted both his manager's cut and also to be his own promoter.

The three year hiatus was Dempsey breaking off with Kearns.

Kearns screwed up the period between July 1921 to July 1923 so badly that when Kearns tried to call off the Gibbons fight at the last minute, in July 1923 (Shelby), for Shelby's failure to meet the final 100K of the 300K guarantee, Dempsey told Kearns to go ahead home, he would stay and fight anyway. Dempsey-Kearns unofficially ended that day.

Dempsey, still under contract with Kearns, then went ahead and took the Firpo fight with Rickard, but dealt with Rickard directly (with Floyd Fitzsimmons help) and then stiffed Kearns of his 50% for the Firpo fight. (Kearns owed Dempsey money.)

They fell out, an into law suits.

Dempsey then stopped fighting until his 10 year contract with Kearns finally expired in Janurary 1926. Dempsey then moved Floyd Fitzsimmons in as his front man and Rickard as the promoter for Tunney.

Blame Kearns. Not Dempsey.

Dempsey conducted a title reign that kept the contender roster handled, but not with the frequency of a Louis, Ali, Holmes, Klitschko and Wilder in more recent times. Indeed, Tommy Burns was the only champion prior to Dempsey who was fond of globetrotting for frequent title defenses.
Dempsey split his time as champion being one of the most famous people in the world.

If he'd traveled the world following the great war and added to his hit list, some combination of Harry Wills, Joe Jeanette, Sam McVey, Harry Greb, George Godfrey, Charley Weinert, Jimmy Maloney, Kid Norfolk, Jack Renault, Paul Samson Koerner, Phil Scott, Harry Persson, Jack Thompson, Young Bob Fitzsimmons, Tom Cowler, Quintin Romero Rojas, Erminio & Giuseppe Spalla, Piet van der Veer, Bud Gorman, Chuck Wiggins, Hans Breitenstraeter, Mike Conroy, Clem Johnson, Ad Stone, Bartley Madden, Marcel Nilles, Rudi Wagener, Brad Simmons, Tiny Jim Herman, Jack DeMave, Bob Lawson and the like; going for inflated numbers; I'm still certain that underinformed critics today would cobble together some reason to disrespect him.

[Dr Z]

Really, have I seen the fight? This seems to be your go to when someone disagrees.

Yes, Dempsey left the ring thinking he had won. Willard team could have pressed it and had him disqualified but didn't. But let's look at what you're suggesting. First, Dempsey would have to securely hold the bolt the entire round and or fight. Second, no one of the 85k people saw this. Third.....if there was a bolt and he dropped it leaving the ring after the first round than why did nobody notice it until after the fight was over at the beginning of round 4? It makes no sense, and it's been debunked long before my theorizations.

You said all the roudns, I pointing out that he could have ditched the evedce in round one where he ran out of the ring. Why did he do this? You figure he would have been celebrating if thought had just twon the championship! No sir,fans would not notice a small peice of metal hidden in the glove or on ring ring mat.


I am talking about the known film. All of it.

[JAB5239]

You said all the roudns, I pointing out that he could have ditched the evedce in round one where he ran out of the ring. Why did he do this? You figure he would have been celebrating if thought had just twon the championship! No sir,fans would not notice a small peice of metal hidden in the glove or on ring ring mat.


I am talking about the known film. All of it.

Not one person out of 85k would have noticed something in his hand? I find that hard to believe. Doesn't matter as this myth has long since been debunked.

[billeau2]

He would have beaten both, and Wills as well.

I state this in the same authoritative tone.

The color line? Nothing to do with Dempsey. Completely to do with Western society during the teens and 20s.
For his part, Dempsey employed some of the better black heavyweights as sparring partners.

Dempsey paid great respect to Langford and Wills, even stating, whimsically, that he was afraid of Langford.

The definition of a rebellious nature is one who flouts convention. That's what drives the new, contemporary lack of respect for Dempsey.

In my opinion, for whatever that's worth to you; Dempsey would speed up the Frazier approach and remains the only human who ever lived who would have beaten a 1966-67 Muhammad Ali.

Your opinions are supported by a group with a lot of clout. There was a time period during Tyson's reign, when history gave us a great gift: You had trainers who had lived to actually watch Johnson, Dempsey all through to Marciano and up to Ali, some of whom were around and cognizant when Tyson was doing his thing. These trainers as a group favored two fighters as "the best." Dempsey and Marciano. Marciano was second and may have conflicted with other choices like Louis and Ali, even Mike, but Dempsey was clearly the favorite pick.

[Dr Z]

Not one person out of 85k would have noticed something in his hand? I find that hard to believe. Doesn't matter as this myth has long since been debunked.

NO. People seated even at ringside do not have the angle as they are way below the ring, and are about of 30 ' away. Too hard to notice a bolt of metal taped in a glove.

[JAB5239]

NO. People seated even at ringside do not have the angle as they are way below the ring, and are about of 30 ' away. Too hard to notice a bolt of metal taped in a glove.

Now it was taped in? Did they tape it in after Dempsey had both his gloves holding the top rope before the beginning of the fight? And why didn't anyone notice them taping a metal bolt to the inside of his glove?

[solidman]

I read a book about Harry Greb and according to the book Greb outclassed Dempsey in the sparring sessions and Dempsey ducked him for years. I have no doubt that Greb would have beaten him.

[travestyny]

Jimmy Deforest wrapped Dempsey's hands in front of Willard's manager and Nat Fleischer.

founder and editor said he had been present when Dempsey's hands were wrapped, stating, "Jack Dempsey had no loaded gloves, and no plaster of Paris over his bandages. I watched the proceedings and the only person who had anything to do with the taping of Jack's hands was Deforest^]. Kearns had nothing to do with it, so his plaster of Paris story is simply not true."

Deforest himself said that he regarded the stories of Dempsey's gloves being loaded as libel, calling them "trash", and said he did not apply any foreign substance to them, "which I can verify since I watched the taping." , in Dempsey's obituary published by The New York Times was openly dismissive of the claim.
There is no record of Willard begging Dempsey to not wear tape.

Willard was supremely confident of beating Dempsey,so confident that he seriously asked Rickard for absolvement should he end up fatally injuring Jack.

Exactly correct. The quotations that I gave are from Jimmy Deforest himself. Here they are again.

"When I handled Kid McCoy I used to bandage his hands with a certain kind of adhesive tape. As soon as McCoy drew on the gloves, the tape hardened and, as a result, he was able to inflict unusual punishment. I wound Dempsey's hands with the same kind of bandages, which Willard inspected. The story that Dempsey wore aluminum pads over his knuckles is a lie. His bandages became hardened, no doubt, and that was why he cut Willard's face to ribbons."

"I regard the stories that I put plaster of Paris on Jack's bandages as plain libel. I'm tired of hearing people talk about such nonsense. It's pure trash. These rumors affect my reputation for honesty and fair dealing. I did apply some water over the bandages when Jack complained about the extreme heat, and that was all. I did not apply any foreign substance to them. I used a hard adhesive tape. This certainly was not irregular. It was not against the rules.

It was the same kind of tape I always used when I bandaged Kid McCoy's hands

Check this out from Charles Samuel's book:

Charles Samuel: The Magnificent Rube -- The life and gaudy times of TEX RICKARD (1957)

On the proceedings before the Willard/Dempsey fight:

When the Marines finally departed there was another delay while a fresh canvas was laid in the ring. Willard had heard that the canvas from his opponent's training-camp ring was being used and demanded at the last moment that another be substituted.

While this was being done, his handlers were watching Dempsey wind yards of heavy bicycle tape around and around his fists, without protesting.

[travestyny]

Dempsey conducted a title reign that kept the contender roster handled, but not with the frequency of a Louis, Ali, Holmes, Klitschko and Wilder in more recent times. Indeed, Tommy Burns was the only champion prior to Dempsey who was fond of globetrotting for frequent title defenses.
Dempsey split his time as champion being one of the most famous people in the world.

If he'd traveled the world following the great war and added to his hit list, some combination of Harry Wills, Joe Jeanette, Sam McVey, Harry Greb, George Godfrey, Charley Weinert, Jimmy Maloney, Kid Norfolk, Jack Renault, Paul Samson Koerner, Phil Scott, Harry Persson, Jack Thompson, Young Bob Fitzsimmons, Tom Cowler, Quintin Romero Rojas, Erminio & Giuseppe Spalla, Piet van der Veer, Bud Gorman, Chuck Wiggins, Hans Breitenstraeter, Mike Conroy, Clem Johnson, Ad Stone, Bartley Madden, Marcel Nilles, Rudi Wagener, Brad Simmons, Tiny Jim Herman, Jack DeMave, Bob Lawson and the like; going for inflated numbers; I'm still certain that underinformed critics today would cobble together some reason to disrespect him.

I don't know about that. I think in the least people wanted him to fight Harry Wills. Instead, he twice claimed to draw the color line to avoid him and claimed no one would promote it, which was certainly not true.

[Bronson66]

Exactly correct. The quotations that I gave are from Jimmy Deforest himself. Here they are again.






Check this out from Charles Samuel's book:

Charles Samuel: The Magnificent Rube -- The life and gaudy times of TEX RICKARD (1957)

On the proceedings before the Willard/Dempsey fight:

Four questions.
Q. 1.If Willard's handlers were watching this being done,why did they not object/protest?

Q.2.If this was accepted practice with no objections to it being done, why didn't Willard and other opponents of Dempsey adopt the practice themselves?

Q.3.Have you a primary source that states Willard begged Dempsey not to wear all that tape?

Q.4.Willard examined Dempsey's hands in the ring, if Jack had yards of bicycle tape on on his hands under the gauze it would have been immediately detectable,by the giant Kansan why didn't Jess protest?

Whilst sparring Dempsey broke the jaw of 7 foot, 300lbs, Big Ben Wray in sparring with 1 punch,he didn't need illegal help.

BTW Charles Samuels was not a boxing man,he was a biographer of film stars ,as such I would take anything he wrote about Dempsey with a large pinch of salt!

.
Anyone serious about educating themselves on Jack Dempsey would be well advised to buy Adam Pollack's 3 volume biography of him.Its the bench mark!