Armstrong vs. Duran @ 140

[Willie Pep 229]

Who did Duran beat at 145 or 140 that makes you think he would?

He beat Mendiza, Viruet, Palomino, Cuevas, Leonard, Barkley, Moore and gave Hagler his toughest defense to that date.

[them_apples]

Who did Duran beat at 145 or 140 that makes you think he would?

Those guys are lightweights. Duran as a person is probably bigger than all of them.

145 and 140 he never officially fought at either, you know that though.

[Mr Mitts]

duran crushes all 3 of those guys. Maybe the same night (no joking)

That is the way I see it too.

Duran stands in full light. He came late enough that he can always be seen at work in a variety of settings on film.

I can understand how even a great like Armstrong can become lost to our sensibilities because his era was the gray one between full light and the historical darkness which relied exclusively on written accounts. Some footage of Hank is out there, but never enough of course.

No such problem with Duran. He is there to see and examine in every aspect. Written accounts are not even necessary, though sometimes entertaining and illustrative.

I don't want to write it off simply as ignorance or shallow study. There must be another reason it always happens. Involvement may be the best word to explain why.

The guy who made the statement to me was probably not even born when Duran ruled the lightweight division. He is not involved with the politics of Duran's era or its social progress, programs or norms. But he shares all of these things and more with Tank et al. He and Tank share one another's concerns directly as occupants of the same era.

Off topic, sorry. Just trying to see why it always happens.

We were once more impressionable than we are now, there is that too. I don't believe there area lot of old men proclaiming Tank and his ilk to be the greatest ever. That would be the young guys. We have gotten more cynical and reserved with our passions--as we have been let down before.

[QueensburyRules]

He beat Mendiza, Viruet, Palomino, Cuevas, Leonard, Barkley, Moore and gave Hagler his toughest defense to that date.

- - A beacon of sanity on this God Forsaken forum!!!

Duran in 2 of three with the first fought at LW, 2nd at Jr Welt, 3rd at full welt, I can guarantee Duran at LW and Welter. Since he skips 140 because he no longer wanted to be wasted stick, I'll give that to Hank who was more disciplined making weight though slightly short on natural talent compared to Duran...

[them_apples]

That is the way I see it too.

Duran stands in full light. He came late enough that he can always be seen at work in a variety of settings on film.

I can understand how even a great like Armstrong can become lost to our sensibilities because his era was the gray one between full light and the historical darkness which relied exclusively on written accounts. Some footage of Hank is out there, but never enough of course.

No such problem with Duran. He is there to see and examine in every aspect. Written accounts are not even necessary, though sometimes entertaining and illustrative.

I don't want to write it off simply as ignorance or shallow study. There must be another reason it always happens. Involvement may be the best word to explain why.

The guy who made the statement to me was probably not even born when Duran ruled the lightweight division. He is not involved with the politics of Duran's era or its social progress, programs or norms. But he shares all of these things and more with Tank et al. He and Tank share one another's concerns directly as occupants of the same era.

Off topic, sorry. Just trying to see why it always happens.

We were once more impressionable than we are now, there is that too. I don't believe there area lot of old men proclaiming Tank and his ilk to be the greatest ever. That would be the young guys. We have gotten more cynical and reserved with our passions--as we have been let down before.

And I am not an old man, just a boxing nerd. I can easily see the level difference in matchups like these. Thats just my opinion. When I see how Duran fought, the circumstances of the day - the results and just his general temperament. I donā€™t see a fighter like tank Davis being even remotely close to the same level as Duran. Heā€™s been brought up via mayweathers gym and got some easy money.

as far as Armstrong goes, the **** poor film quality works against him - but as it improves the better and better it gets. Then add in his record, and once again circumstances of the time. These are just opinions of course - but based off observations and logic to form these opinions.

when someone says tank david beats Duran, its not formed off logic. Its formed from the fact that they only watch one fighter and donā€™t know much else. They are usually new boxing fans that havenā€™t see a fighter get exposed and fall from grace either - believing the hype.

[them_apples]

- - A beacon of sanity on this God Forsaken forum!!!

Duran in 2 of three with the first fought at LW, 2nd at Jr Welt, 3rd at full welt, I can guarantee Duran at LW and Welter. Since he skips 140 because he no longer wanted to be wasted stick, I'll give that to Hank who was more disciplined making weight though slightly short on natural talent compared to Duran...

He was slightly shorter on natural talent but made up for it with raw work ethic. Duran wasnā€™t running. 20 miles every morning and did not possess a resting heart rate in the 30s. Armstrong was a particularly tough individual a real champion. I think my biggest thing about this matchup is to make light of the fact that Armstrong is an all time great fighter - heā€™s not esteban de jesus or a buchanan. Those are good fighters. Armstrong ranks higher on most if not all lists- he is a once in a lifetime fighter just like Duran.

[QueensburyRules]

He was slightly shorter on natural talent but made up for it with raw work ethic. Duran wasnāt running. 20 miles every morning and did not possess a resting heart rate in the 30s. Armstrong was a particularly tough individual a real champion. I think my biggest thing about this matchup is to make light of the fact that Armstrong is an all time great fighter - heās not esteban de jesus or a buchanan. Those are good fighters. Armstrong ranks higher on most if not all lists- he is a once in a lifetime fighter just like Duran.

- - IBRO ALL-TIME RATINGS June 30, 2019 Lightweight Ratings 1. Roberto Duran (614) 2. Benny Leonard (602) 3. Joe Gans (576) 4. Pernell Whitaker (438) 5. Henry Armstrong (429) 6. Tony Canzoneri (428) 7. Ike Williams (418) 8. Barney Ross (332) 9. Carlos Ortiz (295) 10. Lou Ambers (287) 11. Julio Cesar Chavez (246) 12. Freddie Welsh (233) 13. Packey McFarland (219) 14. Alexis Arguello (196) 15. Joe Brown (159) 16. Battling Nelson (116) 17. Jack Blackburn (114) 18. Floyd Mayweather (107) 19. Lew Tendler (85) 20. Shane Mosley (82)

Others receiving votes (50 or more points) Jack McAuliffe (66), Kid Lavigne (63)

Junior Welterweight Ratings 1. Aaron Pryor (293) 2. Julio Cesar Chavez (268) 3. Antonio Cervantes (171) 4. Nicolino Locche (147) 5. Barney Ross (146) 6. Kostya Tszyu (113) 7. Wilfred Benitez (110) 8. Duilio Loi (90) 9. Jackie “Kid” Berg (80) 10. Eddie Perkins (77)

Others receiving votes (over 25 points) Tony Canzoneri (69), Floyd Mayweather (34), Manny Pacquiao (32), Pernell Whitaker (26)

Welterweight Ratings
1. Ray Robinson (637) 2. Ray Leonard (555) 3. Henry Armstrong (523) 4. Thomas Hearns (415) 5. Jose Napoles (403) 6. Emile Griffith (402) 7. Barbados Joe Walcott (401) 8. Mickey Walker (400) 9. Kid Gavilan (383) 10. Barney Ross (340) 11. Jimmy McLarnin (273) 12. Jack Britton (244) 13. Floyd Mayweather Jr. (224) 14. Luis Rodriguez (177) 15. Carmen Basilio (172) 16. Ted ‘Kid’ Lewis (162) 17. Roberto Duran (141) 18. Pernell Whitaker (122) 19. Charley Burley (110) 20. Manny Pacquiao (108)

Other Top Vote Getters (50 or more points): Tommy Ryan (98), Wilfred Benitez (85), Felix Trinidad (79), Oscar Delahoya (79).

[billeau2]

That is the way I see it too.

Duran stands in full light. He came late enough that he can always be seen at work in a variety of settings on film.

I can understand how even a great like Armstrong can become lost to our sensibilities because his era was the gray one between full light and the historical darkness which relied exclusively on written accounts. Some footage of Hank is out there, but never enough of course.

No such problem with Duran. He is there to see and examine in every aspect. Written accounts are not even necessary, though sometimes entertaining and illustrative.

I don't want to write it off simply as ignorance or shallow study. There must be another reason it always happens. Involvement may be the best word to explain why.

The guy who made the statement to me was probably not even born when Duran ruled the lightweight division. He is not involved with the politics of Duran's era or its social progress, programs or norms. But he shares all of these things and more with Tank et al. He and Tank share one another's concerns directly as occupants of the same era.

Off topic, sorry. Just trying to see why it always happens.

We were once more impressionable than we are now, there is that too. I don't believe there area lot of old men proclaiming Tank and his ilk to be the greatest ever. That would be the young guys. We have gotten more cynical and reserved with our passions--as we have been let down before.

There is plenty of film of Armstrong. he can be examined plenty considering his methods are relatively transparent. Similar concept as Miyigi shows Daniel in the second Karate kid... Moving the trunk and shoulders off line while striking into the opponent.

[billeau2]

This is a great analysis of Hank with plenty of film... watch his shoulder movements! Genius, pure genius... Also like a lot of the great ones... His defence is anticapitory. He never gets hit flush. Dude was a technical marvel.

[billeau2]

He was slightly shorter on natural talent but made up for it with raw work ethic. Duran wasnāt running. 20 miles every morning and did not possess a resting heart rate in the 30s. Armstrong was a particularly tough individual a real champion. I think my biggest thing about this matchup is to make light of the fact that Armstrong is an all time great fighter - heās not esteban de jesus or a buchanan. Those are good fighters. Armstrong ranks higher on most if not all lists- he is a once in a lifetime fighter just like Duran.

If we use great generals as analogous to great fighters... HH was Ghengis Kahn. Nobody could figure out how to not get caught in the Mongol Blitz... One group attacks, jumps on fresh horses, next group comes, replenish tired horses, leave their horses, and on it went... The defending army never had a chance to rest. The only skillful warriors that beat the Mongols were the Japanese... and no, it was not luck from a typhoon. The japanese figured out they had to meet the Mongols at sea, and they did. Samurai were that good!

Fighters never had a chance to set up against Hank. He had the right angle ready, always stepping into the right next position... What people do not see is that Hank hardly gets hit. Just an amazing talent, I doubt we will ever see another like him.