Armstrong vs. Duran @ 140

[them_apples]

If we use great generals as analogous to great fighters... HH was Ghengis Kahn. Nobody could figure out how to not get caught in the Mongol Blitz... One group attacks, jumps on fresh horses, next group comes, replenish tired horses, leave their horses, and on it went... The defending army never had a chance to rest. The only skillful warriors that beat the Mongols were the Japanese... and no, it was not luck from a typhoon. The japanese figured out they had to meet the Mongols at sea, and they did. Samurai were that good!

Fighters never had a chance to set up against Hank. He had the right angle ready, always stepping into the right next position... What people do not see is that Hank hardly gets hit. Just an amazing talent, I doubt we will ever see another like him.

Love the Mongol analogy.

should note that Baybars also beat the mongols, and the mongols also beat the japanese!

I totally agree though Armstrong is very difficult to hit clean with his style. You just don’t see someone dedicate themselves to a style like that anymore - I can’t see how anyone could even prepare for it. This includes Duran (for me).

realistically, I see early on Duran smothers and grabs and lands a few counters inside - but the frustration will be apparent from the opening bell that he’s not gonna crank one flush on Armstrong and end it. He’s gotta find openings and while he’s doing that Armstrong presses him and lands short shots inside that Duran takes well.

the big thing for me is sure Duran if he’s fighting hank 4 times and other fighters with rough styles like that I am sure he could adapt over time. If we drop Duran from 72-74 in with Armstrong as he was though - I can’t see him beating Armstrong. Duran still relies too much on timing and Armstrong will give him no time.

[them_apples]

- - IBRO ALL-TIME RATINGS June 30, 2019 Lightweight Ratings 1. Roberto Duran (614) 2. Benny Leonard (602) 3. Joe Gans (576) 4. Pernell Whitaker (438) 5. Henry Armstrong (429) 6. Tony Canzoneri (428) 7. Ike Williams (418) 8. Barney Ross (332) 9. Carlos Ortiz (295) 10. Lou Ambers (287) 11. Julio Cesar Chavez (246) 12. Freddie Welsh (233) 13. Packey McFarland (219) 14. Alexis Arguello (196) 15. Joe Brown (159) 16. Battling Nelson (116) 17. Jack Blackburn (114) 18. Floyd Mayweather (107) 19. Lew Tendler (85) 20. Shane Mosley (82)

Others receiving votes (50 or more points) Jack McAuliffe (66), Kid Lavigne (63)

Junior Welterweight Ratings 1. Aaron Pryor (293) 2. Julio Cesar Chavez (268) 3. Antonio Cervantes (171) 4. Nicolino Locche (147) 5. Barney Ross (146) 6. Kostya Tszyu (113) 7. Wilfred Benitez (110) 8. Duilio Loi (90) 9. Jackie “Kid” Berg (80) 10. Eddie Perkins (77)

Others receiving votes (over 25 points) Tony Canzoneri (69), Floyd Mayweather (34), Manny Pacquiao (32), Pernell Whitaker (26)

Welterweight Ratings
1. Ray Robinson (637) 2. Ray Leonard (555) 3. Henry Armstrong (523) 4. Thomas Hearns (415) 5. Jose Napoles (403) 6. Emile Griffith (402) 7. Barbados Joe Walcott (401) 8. Mickey Walker (400) 9. Kid Gavilan (383) 10. Barney Ross (340) 11. Jimmy McLarnin (273) 12. Jack Britton (244) 13. Floyd Mayweather Jr. (224) 14. Luis Rodriguez (177) 15. Carmen Basilio (172) 16. Ted ‘Kid’ Lewis (162) 17. Roberto Duran (141) 18. Pernell Whitaker (122) 19. Charley Burley (110) 20. Manny Pacquiao (108)

Other Top Vote Getters (50 or more points): Tommy Ryan (98), Wilfred Benitez (85), Felix Trinidad (79), Oscar Delahoya (79).

thanks for posting these lists. It shows they both rate highly.

there are still many intangibles to consider though.

[billeau2]

Love the Mongol analogy.

should note that Baybars also beat the mongols, and the mongols also beat the japanese!

I totally agree though Armstrong is very difficult to hit clean with his style. You just donâÂÂt see someone dedicate themselves to a style like that anymore - I canâÂÂt see how anyone could even prepare for it. This includes Duran (for me).

realistically, I see early on Duran smothers and grabs and lands a few counters inside - but the frustration will be apparent from the opening bell that heâÂÂs not gonna crank one flush on Armstrong and end it. HeâÂÂs gotta find openings and while heâÂÂs doing that Armstrong presses him and lands short shots inside that Duran takes well.

the big thing for me is sure Duran if heâÂÂs fighting hank 4 times and other fighters with rough styles like that I am sure he could adapt over time. If we drop Duran from 72-74 in with Armstrong as he was though - I canâÂÂt see him beating Armstrong. Duran still relies too much on timing and Armstrong will give him no time.

The wonderful thing is, when you read accounts of the Japanese Mongol invasion you read that the Mongols did beat them initially. The Japanese then went and revamped their strategy to attack at sea, they made some real adjustments including the basic unit of men in a force, tactics, etc... To me that makes the victory that much sweeter... And when people claim they were lucky? The mongols did not go back, and had many consequent victories, but avoided Japan. What we at this site often call... you ready for this ThemApples? "A duck!"

Yeah Duran had the pluck for sure... I agree that he could find a way and make for a great series of fights.

[Mr Mitts]

- - A beacon of sanity on this God Forsaken forum!!!

Duran in 2 of three with the first fought at LW, 2nd at Jr Welt, 3rd at full welt, I can guarantee Duran at LW and Welter. Since he skips 140 because he no longer wanted to be wasted stick, I'll give that to Hank who was more disciplined making weight though slightly short on natural talent compared to Duran...

A beacon of sanitation on this Good Foreskin forum!!!

Fixed it for you.

[Dr. Z]

This is a great analysis of Hank with plenty of film... watch his shoulder movements! Genius, pure genius... Also like a lot of the great ones... His defence is anticapitory. He never gets hit flush. Dude was a technical marvel.

Well, I don't know about he never got hit flush.

[billeau2]

Well, I don't know about he never got hit flush.

The amount of license many posters take with absolute terms like "never" and ridiculous assertions and you are calling me out on a slight exxageration to make the point that Armstrong had very good defensive skills? Really? . Armstrong was underrated defensively, let me put it that way. His upper body movement, lateral and forwards was incredibly hard to deal with, for the same reason Nicolino Locche was impossible to hit: Both men found a way to avoid a shot by moving forwards.

Despite the obvious differences in approach, when you avoid a shot going back you give the opponent much more visability and the ability to adjust the distance (because there is more of it). When moving inwards the opponent has no distance to calibrate and lacks visability. Locche had super human reflexes, Armstrong used anticipatory movement of the shoulders and head to make the opponent jam up and miss. EVEN LOCCHE GOT HIT SOMETIMES!!!

[Dr. Z]

The amount of license many posters take with absolute terms like "never" and ridiculous assertions and you are calling me out on a slight exxageration to make the point that Armstrong had very good defensive skills? Really? . Armstrong was underrated defensively, let me put it that way. His upper body movement, lateral and forwards was incredibly hard to deal with, for the same reason Nicolino Locche was impossible to hit: Both men found a way to avoid a shot by moving forwards.

Despite the obvious differences in approach, when you avoid a shot going back you give the opponent much more visability and the ability to adjust the distance (because there is more of it). When moving inwards the opponent has no distance to calibrate and lacks visability. Locche had super human reflexes, Armstrong used anticipatory movement of the shoulders and head to make the opponent jam up and miss. EVEN LOCCHE GOT HIT SOMETIMES!!!

Okay, but Armstrong is not what I think of when defense is being discussed. What flims do you think Amstrong shows good defense in making a man miss / blocks well, or uses his feet for defense? I am asking you.

[QueensburyRules]

- - Armstrong defense was his heavy offense forcing most fighters into their own defense where they couldn't hurt Henry...

[billeau2]

Okay, but Armstrong is not what I think of when defense is being discussed. What flims do you think Amstrong shows good defense in making a man miss / blocks well, or uses his feet for defense? I am asking you.

I Look at a few things and realize some general principles:

1. Look at Armstrong's perpetual angle to the opponent, and look at where he is. From this information one can see he is not in range.
2. Look at what the opponent is doing, moving backwards usually, making any shot trivial.
3. Realize that the hand being quicker than the eye means a lot of punches the judges assume, whether they actually land, or not... And look at the effect of the punch itself, both points to me indicate, based on Armstrong's look, that he is not getting caught. Even pressure fighters stop moving when they get tagged good.

All these points mentioned are in virtually any film of Armstrong... You just have to look for them and use logic.

[billeau2]

- - Armstrong defense was his heavy offense forcing most fighters into their own defense where they couldn't hurt Henry...

Absolutely... Sometimes the best offense becomes the best defense as well...