Pac: Skills vs Juice - you tell me

[Hannibal Barca]

I don't see him as physically better, but a smarter more intelligent fighter. Add that to the fact that he's only 31.....how can you suggest PED's?

I do. He's mowing through his opponents, men physically bigger, whereas he previously had much more trouble with smaller, mediocre fighters. If it were skill he's relying on, I wouldn't suspect him as much, but it isn't. Both fans and haters alike can attest to his mediocre technical skills.

Only 31? 31 is old in professional athletics, especially when you've taken as much physical punishment as Manny has.

Take LaDanian Tomlinson for example. Great young talent, and for many years he dominated the league. In recent years, because of age and the amount of hits he's taken, his production has tremendously dwindled. With age, his production didn't excel, it faded as it does for all athletes.

I'll take one of the greatest athletes of our era as my second example. Michael Jordan came into the NBA and could practically fly. The man was amazing. In fact, in only his 3rd season, coming off an injury that prematurely ended his sop****re season, he averaged 37 pts a game. Eventually, though he still produced insane numbers, because of age he was forced to change the way he played the game. He was quoted as saying something to the effect of "It was nice playing you guys from above, but now I've got to change my game". What he do? Changed from the soaring acrobatic to an assassin with an unbelievable mid range game.

That's what most athletes are forced to do, change with their aging bodies; but not Manny Pacquiao. Not only does his blistering offensive style remain in tact for the most part, but he actually gets better with age. That is biologically impossible, and we have an entire century of evidence supporting the notion that athletes level off with age, not get better. As I said, couple that with his horde of BS excuses, and I'm pretty much convinced he's on something.

[Allucard]

I just watched every Pac fight since Barrera I. Most posters on here no I don't hug any fighter, but I am of the opinion that you're innocent till proven guilty. While watching these fights I noticed something about Manny. He's always been able to land punches, but at 130 and below he'd dwell on the inside and lean back instead of moving out of harms way. At 135 and up his speed has been a tremendous asset, but he's no longer lingering on the inside after he punches, he's moving backwards or lateral preventing him from catching the same shots he did against Marquez and others. Steroid accusations are rampant, but could he have just become a smarter fighter? It's only my opinion, but he doesn't seem faster, only better. Those who say his power has increased, I don't see that either. It's much easier to put punches together and land harder shots when you aren't eating leather yourself. Opinions in either direction are fine, I'd only ask that you back it up with logic. So?

Ok. So why not have a tablespoon of blood drawn? It comes down to it. Also keep in mind he's been moving up in weight while "getting better". The one thing that makes him a suspect cheater in my book is the fact he refused random blood tests. Until he takes the tests he'll remain a suspect in my book. And if he keeps waiting for Floyd to slow down so he can take the fight, it's not gonna happen. Fighters age according to how they fight and each time Pacquiao is out there he gets hit more than Mayweather was during his whole career.

[hanzoh74]

lol yah pacs real amazing now. he beat up an over the hill weight drained hoya. cotto who was never the same after getting his ass whooped by margarito and still made him drop an extra 2 pounds to drain him. ricky hatton who was never the same after getting whooped by floyd. and david diaz lol.

and KFCs resume sucks more anyway....Castillo and Corrales cant even beat a weightdrained dela Hoya

[bojangles1987]

Thank you, At last someone that actually study a fighter, Manny Pacquiao has gone slow IMO too, He was too fast and reckless in the past but since then he has matured as a fighter, I dont believe the "He cant get better has he goes older" attitude.

People assume he is as fast as ever or faster than he has ever been when it's simply not true. It's just that fighters at 147 are much slower than the fighters at 126 or 130, so Pac is still much, much faster than they are. People confuse that with Pac not losing a step.

[S A M U R A I]

I just watched every Pac fight since Barrera I. Most posters on here no I don't hug any fighter, but I am of the opinion that you're innocent till proven guilty. While watching these fights I noticed something about Manny. He's always been able to land punches, but at 130 and below he'd dwell on the inside and lean back instead of moving out of harms way. At 135 and up his speed has been a tremendous asset, but he's no longer lingering on the inside after he punches, he's moving backwards or lateral preventing him from catching the same shots he did against Marquez and others. Steroid accusations are rampant, but could he have just become a smarter fighter? It's only my opinion, but he doesn't seem faster, only better. Those who say his power has increased, I don't see that either. It's much easier to put punches together and land harder shots when you aren't eating leather yourself. Opinions in either direction are fine, I'd only ask that you back it up with logic. So?

Pacquiao is definitely -- without doubt -- a smarter, more disciplined and mature fighter these days. He became a better counter puncher, developed a better right hand, better footwork, and is generally just smarter overall. He did this without losing his fire and energy, too. Like you, I don't see an increase in speed, personally I think he was slightly faster when he was fighting in the lower divisions, although his speed is still blistering fast. Speed is the probably the only thing that has not improved.

I disagree with anyone who says it's impossible for a fighter to improve at this point in their career. That's gotta be the biggest joke ever. With better training and nutrition, plus the fact that he isn't draining himself (this has made the biggest difference, IMO), why shouldn't he improve? The guy is quite clearly on a mission to be the best he can be, and to make his mark as a true ATG, which he has done and continues to do.

What I think is this: most top fighters get to a point where they've made enough money to be comfortable and secure their family, so they lose their drive and ambition. They rest on their laurels. That's the main reason they don't continue to improve. How many times have we heard a fighter say his heart just isn't in it anymore? I have lost count. This is not the case with Pacquiao. THAT is the difference between him and the rest of the herd.



| |

[S A M U R A I]

I do. He's mowing through his opponents, men physically bigger, whereas he previously had much more trouble with smaller, mediocre fighters.

Please list the fighters he's had trouble with out of his 55 fights.

There are very few fighters who he hasn't mowed through, regardless of the weight class.

Is Erik Morales more mediocre than De La Hoya, Hatton, Diaz and Cotto? No.

Marquez? Is he more mediocre than the above names? No.

The only guys who gave him problems before that were ones who KO'd him as a kid or used dirty tactics to rough him up and foul him. It's common knowledge that in at least one of those two KO losses he was severely drained, failed to make weight and lost his Flyweight title on the scales. He was knocked out by a shady looking body shot that appeared to be a low blow.

Please elaborate though, since you're such a pro when it comes to all things Pacquiao.



| |

[S A M U R A I]

By the way, there's a couple of other things to consider:

1: Floyd Mayweather also had more competitive fights at lower weights. Since he doesn't drain himself though, he looks virtually untouchable.

2: The old cliche, styles make fights. Any fighter at any point can be given a hard night by anyone, even a mediocre fighter. It's as though some people think all fighters are like robots. We ALL have good and bad days. If you disagree, maybe you're an android and you have been programmed.

Both fans and haters alike can attest to his mediocre technical skills.

No. Not at all. The guy has great skills. You're too dumb to see it.



| |

[rao007]

I do. He's mowing through his opponents, men physically bigger, whereas he previously had much more trouble with smaller, mediocre fighters. If it were skill he's relying on, I wouldn't suspect him as much, but it isn't. Both fans and haters alike can attest to his mediocre technical skills.

Only 31? 31 is old in professional athletics, especially when you've taken as much physical punishment as Manny has.

Take LaDanian Tomlinson for example. Great young talent, and for many years he dominated the league. In recent years, because of age and the amount of hits he's taken, his production has tremendously dwindled. With age, his production didn't excel, it faded as it does for all athletes.

I'll take one of the greatest athletes of our era as my second example. Michael Jordan came into the NBA and could practically fly. The man was amazing. In fact, in only his 3rd season, coming off an injury that prematurely ended his sop****re season, he averaged 37 pts a game. Eventually, though he still produced insane numbers, because of age he was forced to change the way he played the game. He was quoted as saying something to the effect of "It was nice playing you guys from above, but now I've got to change my game". What he do? Changed from the soaring acrobatic to an assassin with an unbelievable mid range game.


That's what most athletes are forced to do, change with their aging bodies; but not Manny Pacquiao. Not only does his blistering offensive style remain in tact for the most part, but he actually gets better with age. That is biologically impossible, and we have an entire century of evidence supporting the notion that athletes level off with age, not get better. As I said, couple that with his horde of BS excuses, and I'm pretty much convinced he's on something.

So, Manny didn't improve his boxing skills, at all? Was Nacho wrong when he said pacquiao has technique now? Or was it his cherry picked opponents what made him look good?

[S A M U R A I]

It's not as though technical skills are solely what win fights anyway. I mean, how can you measure heart, passion, pride, will power, mental strength? Pacquiao has all of these attributes in abundance.



| |

[Mr.Crust]

I just watched every Pac fight since Barrera I. Most posters on here no I don't hug any fighter, but I am of the opinion that you're innocent till proven guilty. While watching these fights I noticed something about Manny. He's always been able to land punches, but at 130 and below he'd dwell on the inside and lean back instead of moving out of harms way. At 135 and up his speed has been a tremendous asset, but he's no longer lingering on the inside after he punches, he's moving backwards or lateral preventing him from catching the same shots he did against Marquez and others. Steroid accusations are rampant, but could he have just become a smarter fighter? It's only my opinion, but he doesn't seem faster, only better. Those who say his power has increased, I don't see that either. It's much easier to put punches together and land harder shots when you aren't eating leather yourself. Opinions in either direction are fine, I'd only ask that you back it up with logic. So?

I agree with you about being innocent until proven guilty. The guy has been has been subject to some form of testing frequently over the years,and juicing,regardless of what I have read from the collection of learned experts in this forum,is not an exact science.

Manny has got so much better in just about every department over the years,and as a boxing fan I realise that once in a while special fighters come along. Manny is one,Floyd is one,Mosley and De la Hoya were fantastic champs,Roy Jones etc.

Until someone can prove to me otherwise I will regard him as such.