Pac: Skills vs Juice - you tell me

[MayMosPeaHop]

I just watched every Pac fight since Barrera I. Most posters on here no I don't hug any fighter, but I am of the opinion that you're innocent till proven guilty. While watching these fights I noticed something about Manny. He's always been able to land punches, but at 130 and below he'd dwell on the inside and lean back instead of moving out of harms way. At 135 and up his speed has been a tremendous asset, but he's no longer lingering on the inside after he punches, he's moving backwards or lateral preventing him from catching the same shots he did against Marquez and others. Steroid accusations are rampant, but could he have just become a smarter fighter? It's only my opinion, but he doesn't seem faster, only better. Those who say his power has increased, I don't see that either. It's much easier to put punches together and land harder shots when you aren't eating leather yourself. Opinions in either direction are fine, I'd only ask that you back it up with logic. So?

I agree he is pretty much the same fighter as he was in the lower weights. I think the 140lb division is where he should fight also. But logically, I do not know if he has gotten much better. Smarter, that is debatable also. But to answer your question with logic, the truth is Manny's last 4 fights have been against lesser opponents. JMM was and is superior to any of those fighters at the point in which Manny fought them. To clarify, JMM was a better fighter, a more complete fighter than Diaz, De La Hoya, Hatton, and Cotto were at the time in which Manny fought them. Manny has not fought a opponent as good or superior to JMM since they last fought. How about that for logic?

[JAB5239]

Pac always had skill he was just raw. You can't do what he did in lower weight-classes against top fighters without skills. But, he refined them skills, he developed a right hand, he developed better footwork, better balance, he became more patient in the ring, his boxing IQ got better, overall he became a better fighter IMO...

Thats what Im thinking too. I am open to logical arguments though.

[Ray*]

I just watched every Pac fight since Barrera I. Most posters on here no I don't hug any fighter, but I am of the opinion that you're innocent till proven guilty. While watching these fights I noticed something about Manny. He's always been able to land punches, but at 130 and below he'd dwell on the inside and lean back instead of moving out of harms way. At 135 and up his speed has been a tremendous asset, but he's no longer lingering on the inside after he punches, he's moving backwards or lateral preventing him from catching the same shots he did against Marquez and others. Steroid accusations are rampant, but could he have just become a smarter fighter? It's only my opinion, but he doesn't seem faster, only better. Those who say his power has increased, I don't see that either. It's much easier to put punches together and land harder shots when you aren't eating leather yourself. Opinions in either direction are fine, I'd only ask that you back it up with logic. So?

Of course Pac has improved tremedously (Juice or NO juice), And i dont believe he has just gain more power when he moved up because with the intense and speed he throw punches he would KO anyone if he lands it at a difficult angle, I would however wouldnt count out any boxer/sportperson juicing because none of us are with them 24/7 to see what they take or dont take and making yourself unavailable for random testing without leeways in the 21st century is bound to make normal intelligent people su****ious.

[JAB5239]

I agree he is pretty much the same fighter as he was in the lower weights. I think the 140lb division is where he should fight also. But logically, I do not know if he has gotten much better. Smarter, that is debatable also. But to answer your question with logic, the truth is Manny's last 4 fights have been against lesser opponents. JMM was and is superior to any of those fighters at the point in which Manny fought them. To clarify, JMM was a better fighter, a more complete fighter than Diaz, De La Hoya, Hatton, and Cotto were at the time in which Manny fought them. Manny has not fought a opponent as good or superior to JMM since they last fought. How about that for logic?

Thats fair. But at the same time4 he's moved up in weight where the overwhelming percentage of fighters aren't as skilled as JMM. And at the same time he has shown improvement in his game. Do we blame Pac for the fighters he's fought? Accuse him of PED's? Or do we accept the fact that he's gotten better? Not faster, not stronger, but more polished?

[Ray*]

I agree he is pretty much the same fighter as he was in the lower weights. I think the 140lb division is where he should fight also. But logically, I do not know if he has gotten much better. Smarter, that is debatable also. But to answer your question with logic, the truth is Manny's last 4 fights have been against lesser opponents. JMM was and is superior to any of those fighters at the point in which Manny fought them. To clarify, JMM was a better fighter, a more complete fighter than Diaz, De La Hoya, Hatton, and Cotto were at the time in which Manny fought them. Manny has not fought a opponent as good or superior to JMM since they last fought. How about that for logic?

That was one of the arguement i was having with a Cotto fan on here once, JMM was a better technical fighter than cotto and thats one of the reason Pac alway struggle against him, The Hattons,cottos,clotteys,Margaritos would alway make Pac look like a world-beater IMO but even Pac at this stage would struggle and look horrible with a Joan Guzman,Cory spinks or Zahir Raheem..

[Prime 407]

Everybody knows Pac is where he is because of skill n not PED's, all the top trainers know it, hey even the Mayweathers know this.... the sad thing is the dumbasses who believe excuses coming from the Mayweather camp.

[rao007]

Everybody knows Pac is where he is because of skill n not PED's, all the top trainers know it, hey even the Mayweathers know this.... the sad thing is the dumbasses who believe excuses coming from the Mayweather camp.

Stop defending----accept.

[JAB5239]

Of course Pac has improved tremedously (Juice or NO juice), And i dont believe he has just gain more power when he moved up because with the intense and speed he throw punches he would KO anyone if he lands it at a difficult angle, I would however wouldnt count out any boxer/sportperson juicing because none of us are with them 24/7 to see what they take or dont take and making yourself unavailable for random testing without leeways in the 21st century is bound to make normal intelligent people su****ious.

Im also su****ious. But Im not going to judge a fighter on what I don't know. Im also going to take into consideration the circumstances of the situation. I thought 14 days was a good agreement. Pac turned it down. At the same time I have to think if I am Manny why would I let ANYONE dictate the terms of a fight to me when I am the p4p top gun and they've already gone about slandering me? People talk about the money. Pacquiao already has enough money so his great grand kids can live comfortably. Pride though, pride is forever. Thats just MY opinion though.

[Ray*]

Thats fair. But at the same time4 he's moved up in weight where the overwhelming percentage of fighters aren't as skilled as JMM. And at the same time he has shown improvement in his game. Do we blame Pac for the fighters he's fought? Accuse him of PED's? Or do we accept the fact that he's gotten better? Not faster, not stronger, but more polished?

Why should anyone blame Pac for the fighters he fought?? or accuse him of PED? You can go into a fight and be an overwhelming favourite (De la Hoya/Pacquiao) and end up getting your behind kicked. I think Pac has been matched carefully since he fought Morales and i would like to see how he does against Mayweather or Guzman type of style but to be honest there isnt a lot of boxers around with a fighting style like that in around Pac's weight so all he could do is fight the best opponents available.

[Eagle Eye]

lol yah pacs real amazing now. he beat up an over the hill weight drained hoya. cotto who was never the same after getting his ass whooped by margarito and still made him drop an extra 2 pounds to drain him. ricky hatton who was never the same after getting whooped by floyd. and david diaz lol.

Correlate this now with PEDS, genius!