Pac: Skills vs Juice - you tell me

[F l i c k e r]

I just watched every Pac fight since Barrera I. Most posters on here no I don't hug any fighter, but I am of the opinion that you're innocent till proven guilty. While watching these fights I noticed something about Manny. He's always been able to land punches, but at 130 and below he'd dwell on the inside and lean back instead of moving out of harms way. At 135 and up his speed has been a tremendous asset, but he's no longer lingering on the inside after he punches, he's moving backwards or lateral preventing him from catching the same shots he did against Marquez and others. Steroid accusations are rampant, but could he have just become a smarter fighter? It's only my opinion, but he doesn't seem faster, only better. Those who say his power has increased, I don't see that either. It's much easier to put punches together and land harder shots when you aren't eating leather yourself. Opinions in either direction are fine, I'd only ask that you back it up with logic. So?

Alright bro, I actually respect your knowledge on the game. Your one of the few guys who don't hug fighters and ignore logic. But let me tell you this, NSB is ruled by massive ******* trolls. You won't find much knowledgable response in NSB now-a-days.

Personally, I don't see Pacquiao doing steroids. I see basically what you see. However, when you look at the whole situation from the otherside of the spectrum, from Floyd's side of the table. He is seeing a guy who really wasn't anything special from the lower weights. He is looking at Pacquiao; couldn't kayo JMM, couldn't kayo MAB, couldn't even kayo Oscar Larios. Has horrible fundamentals. Fights Oscar, who was beat by the pure speed. Fights Hatton, who was only kayo'd once in his career which wasn't even his best weight. Gets destroyed by Pacquiao. Then moves on to fight Cotto, destroys Cotto. He may have been influenced by Roger but still, in the back of his mind I can't blame him for questioning Pacquiao. It's not like that **** happens everyday, ya know?

I honestly believe Mayweather only wanted to get under Pacquiao's skin with the PED testing. It would piss anyone off to be accused of PEDs, Mayweather knew this and tried to get under his skin. Just like he personally assualts Mosley about his former marriage. Or Gatti with his boxing ability. Dela Hoya about his age and heritage etc.

If you don't bring into account "who is he to demand anything"and "it's against the norm". Those are just excuses.
If you really look at the corner Mayweather forced Pacquiao into. If he denies Olympic style, random blood testing.. Pacquiao will automatically get that PED questioning. It's an inevitable situation. Specially with all the excuses for not taking the tests.
Now think about what would have happened if Pacquiao agreed to the testing. Honestly, in your heart of hearts, do you think Pacquiao would even be questioned? What would you have thought of Mayweather instead, if Pacquiao had agreed?

You see what i'm sayin? You have to question him slightly, just a little bit. Because it's shady to deny such a test. Regardless, of all the excuses on why Mayweather doesn't have the right to demand such things. It's just shady.

[JAB5239]

Alright bro, I actually respect your knowledge on the game. Your one of the few guys who don't hug fighters and ignore logic. But let me tell you this, NSB is ruled by massive ******* trolls. You won't find much knowledgable response in NSB now-a-days.

Personally, I don't see Pacquiao doing steroids. I see basically what you see. However, when you look at the whole situation from the otherside of the spectrum, from Floyd's side of the table. He is seeing a guy who really wasn't anything special from the lower weights. He is looking at Pacquiao; couldn't kayo JMM, couldn't kayo MAB, couldn't even kayo Oscar Larios. Has horrible fundamentals. Fights Oscar, who was beat by the pure speed. Fights Hatton, who was only kayo'd once in his career which wasn't even his best weight. Gets destroyed by Pacquiao. Then moves on to fight Cotto, destroys Cotto. He may have been influenced by Roger but still, in the back of his mind I can't blame him for questioning Pacquiao. It's not like that **** happens everyday, ya know?

I honestly believe Mayweather only wanted to get under Pacquiao's skin with the PED testing. It would piss anyone off to be accused of PEDs, Mayweather knew this and tried to get under his skin. Just like he personally assualts Mosley about his former marriage. Or Gatti with his boxing ability. Dela Hoya about his age and heritage etc.

If you don't bring into account "who is he to demand anything"and "it's against the norm". Those are just excuses.
If you really look at the corner Mayweather forced Pacquiao into. If he denies Olympic style, random blood testing.. Pacquiao will automatically get that PED questioning. It's an inevitable situation. Specially with all the excuses for not taking the tests.
Now think about what would have happened if Pacquiao agreed to the testing. Honestly, in your heart of hearts, do you think Pacquiao would even be questioned? What would you have thought of Mayweather instead, if Pacquiao had agreed?

You see what i'm sayin? You have to question him slightly, just a little bit. Because it's shady to deny such a test. Regardless, of all the excuses on why Mayweather doesn't have the right to demand such things. It's just shady.

Great post Flicker, Both logical and reasonable. Im not trying to sway opinion, just curious as to why many have the mindset they do. I have my own doubts/questions, but Im trying to look at it from both sides. One thing that sticks in my mind though is that Pac HAS improved in the skill and game plan department. Im not saying Im right, only what I see.

[Ray*]

so do you think if ali fought a lot of frazier type of boxer, would he have a lot of loses?

He would win some and lose some, He would struggle and wouldnt look great, I never said Pac cannot beat a style like Mayweathers or guzman, I think he can and will but when he does he wouldnt look great doing so but thats my opinion. The brawlers type style work perfectly for Pac and makes him look great to the watching eye.

[Roy Hobbs]

I just watched every Pac fight since Barrera I. Most posters on here no I don't hug any fighter, but I am of the opinion that you're innocent till proven guilty. While watching these fights I noticed something about Manny. He's always been able to land punches, but at 130 and below he'd dwell on the inside and lean back instead of moving out of harms way. At 135 and up his speed has been a tremendous asset, but he's no longer lingering on the inside after he punches, he's moving backwards or lateral preventing him from catching the same shots he did against Marquez and others. Steroid accusations are rampant, but could he have just become a smarter fighter? It's only my opinion, but he doesn't seem faster, only better. Those who say his power has increased, I don't see that either. It's much easier to put punches together and land harder shots when you aren't eating leather yourself. Opinions in either direction are fine, I'd only ask that you back it up with logic. So?

im new to this site & i cant believe how erratic the line of thinking & how easily swayed people are of things that are reported. I believe pacman to be clean & rightfully innocent until proven otherwise. He never used to hurt or even knock down people with his right hand, now he's scored 2 knockdowns with his right.

That was one of the arguement i was having with a Cotto fan on here once,

JMM was a better technical fighter than cotto and thats one of the reason Pac alway struggle against him, The Hattons,cottos,clotteys,Margaritos would alway make Pac look like a world-beater IMO but even Pac at this stage would struggle and look horrible with a Joan Guzman,Cory spinks or Zahir Raheem..

I think his struggles vs marquez is what caused his improvement. It forced manny to get better & improve his arsenal. I could see a clear improvement since his last fight vs marquez. There's no shame in struggling vs other great opponents in their proper weight class. As i have posted, pacman never used to hurt his opponents with his right hand, now he's scoring knockdowns. Pacman has improved almost all facets of his game from his defense, intelligence, strategy, & most importantly experience.

Alright bro, I actually respect your knowledge on the game. Your one of the few guys who don't hug fighters and ignore logic. But let me tell you this, NSB is ruled by massive ******* trolls. You won't find much knowledgable response in NSB now-a-days.

Personally, I don't see Pacquiao doing steroids. I see basically what you see. However, when you look at the whole situation from the otherside of the spectrum, from Floyd's side of the table. He is seeing a guy who really wasn't anything special from the lower weights. He is looking at Pacquiao; couldn't kayo JMM, couldn't kayo MAB, couldn't even kayo Oscar Larios. Has horrible fundamentals. Fights Oscar, who was beat by the pure speed. Fights Hatton, who was only kayo'd once in his career which wasn't even his best weight. Gets destroyed by Pacquiao. Then moves on to fight Cotto, destroys Cotto. He may have been influenced by Roger but still, in the back of his mind I can't blame him for questioning Pacquiao. It's not like that **** happens everyday, ya know?

I honestly believe Mayweather only wanted to get under Pacquiao's skin with the PED testing. It would piss anyone off to be accused of PEDs, Mayweather knew this and tried to get under his skin. Just like he personally assualts Mosley about his former marriage. Or Gatti with his boxing ability. Dela Hoya about his age and heritage etc.

If you don't bring into account "who is he to demand anything"and "it's against the norm". Those are just excuses.
If you really look at the corner Mayweather forced Pacquiao into. If he denies Olympic style, random blood testing.. Pacquiao will automatically get that PED questioning. It's an inevitable situation. Specially with all the excuses for not taking the tests.
Now think about what would have happened if Pacquiao agreed to the testing. Honestly, in your heart of hearts, do you think Pacquiao would even be questioned? What would you have thought of Mayweather instead, if Pacquiao had agreed?

You see what i'm sayin? You have to question him slightly, just a little bit. Because it's shady to deny such a test. Regardless, of all the excuses on why Mayweather doesn't have the right to demand such things. It's just shady.

Manny's been a special fighter since his days at 122 & 126. He's also been knocking guys out from the outset. From 112,122,126,130,135,140, & now welterweight, pacman has been dominating people. Him physically dominating guys is nothing new. Lets also not forget manny was already willing to agree to extra testing, just not the cutoff date.

[Valero Is God]

He would win some and lose some, He would struggle and wouldnt look great, I never said Pac cannot beat a style like Mayweathers or guzman, I think he can and will but when he does he wouldnt look great doing so but thats my opinion. The brawlers type style work perfectly for Pac and makes him look great to the watching eye.

yeah and it seems like a counter puncher is the one that will always give trouble to a brawler type of boxers.

[Hannibal Barca]

One of manny reasons I believe he's on PED's is because what he's doing contradicts the laws of physics. The mans been in flat out wars, fought 50+ fights, taken tons of punishment, and he's still getting physically better as he grows with age. Doesn't add up in my book. Sports history illustrates a picture of athletes dwindling as they age, not increasingly getting better. When those athletes continue to get physically better with age, somethings up.

Couple that with the horde of conflicting excuses as to why Manny's so against random blood testing and his drug use is pretty much cemented in my mind.

[JAB5239]

One of manny reasons I believe he's on PED's is because what he's doing contradicts the laws of physics. The mans been in flat out wars, fought 50+ fights, taken tons of punishment, and he's still getting physically better as he grows with age. Doesn't add up in my book. Sports history illustrates a picture of athletes dwindling as they age, not increasingly getting better. When those athletes continue to get physically better with age, somethings up.

Couple that with the horde of conflicting excuses as to why Manny's so against random blood testing and his drug use is pretty much cemented in my mind.

I don't see him as physically better, but a smarter more intelligent fighter. Add that to the fact that he's only 31.....how can you suggest PED's?

[bojangles1987]

While the whole issue of the blood tests does shine some su****ion on Pac, many people exaggerate his physical level right now. He is slower than he used to be and has less power, that is obvious. He has also clearly improved his all around skills. He doesn't dive in with the straight left as recklessly. He does display much more movement laterally as JAB said. His development of his right hand has helped a lot. He has a much better understanding of how to set up his punches and not get hit.

Combine that with the opponents he fights lately, who he deserves full credit for but have all been guys Pac could look good against, and I just don't understand why steroids or any PED is the cause for his improvement. I'd have to see it to believe it.

[JAB5239]

While the whole issue of the blood tests does shine some su****ion on Pac, many people exaggerate his physical level right now. He is slower than he used to be and has less power, that is obvious. He has also clearly improved his all around skills. He doesn't dive in with the straight left as recklessly. He does display much more movement laterally as JAB said. His development of his right hand has helped a lot. He has a much better understanding of how to set up his punches and not get hit.

Combine that with the opponents he fights lately, who he deserves full credit for but have all been guys Pac could look good against, and I just don't understand why steroids or any PED is the cause for his improvement. I'd have to see it to believe it.

Good post Bo.

[Ray*]

While the whole issue of the blood tests does shine some su****ion on Pac, many people exaggerate his physical level right now. He is slower than he used to be and has less power, that is obvious. He has also clearly improved his all around skills. He doesn't dive in with the straight left as recklessly. He does display much more movement laterally as JAB said. His development of his right hand has helped a lot. He has a much better understanding of how to set up his punches and not get hit.

Combine that with the opponents he fights lately, who he deserves full credit for but have all been guys Pac could look good against, and I just don't understand why steroids or any PED is the cause for his improvement. I'd have to see it to believe it.

Thank you, At last someone that actually study a fighter, Manny Pacquiao has gone slow IMO too, He was too fast and reckless in the past but since then he has matured as a fighter, I dont believe the "He cant get better has he goes older" attitude.