The Top 20 All-Time Greatest P4P List

[mrbig1]

I gotta ask, I keep seeing people putting Duran over Leonard. Duran Lost to Benitez, Hearns and Hagler. Ray beat all three. Duran lost 2 of 3 H2H with Leonard. The fight in which he beat Leonard, they went toe to toe for 15 rounds. If Ray would've fought his fight, and didn't try to prove he could slug it out with Duran, he would've won that fight too. I'm curious as to why posters continue to rank Duran above Leonard on the P4P list.

Not saying Duran should be ahead of SRL. People forget Duran was lightweight champ for damn near 7 years before moving up.

[Willie Pep 229]

Not saying Duran should be ahead of SRL. People forget Duran was lightweight champ for damn near 7 years before moving up.

Dreamroom makes good points - don't agree with him on one point: that SRL chose to fight Duran's fight; Duran made SRL fight his fight.

Everyone trys to make that excuse for SRL's loss, but the simple truth is, he got outfought and couldn't keep Montréal Duran off him.

[dreamroom]

Dreamroom makes good points - don't agree with him on one point: that SRL chose to fight Duran's fight; Duran made SRL fight his fight.

Everyone trys to make that excuse for SRL's loss, but the simple truth is, he got outfought and couldn't keep Montréal Duran off him.

I guess nobody really knows beside Ray himself. I remember all the talk around here, ( i live in Baltimore), that Ray would just dance around and stay away from Duran, that he couldn't slug it out with Duran, Duran would knock him out etc. etc etc. Before the fight: "Angelo Dundee counseled Leonard to box, to move side to side and not to get caught on the ropes. However, Leonard decided to fight Durán's way. "Flat-footed", he said. "I will not run."
Judging by the way Ray fought him the next 2 times, the way Ray fights in general, and Dundee's comments before the fight, I don't believe Ray was physically unable to stay away from him. I agree he was out fought, but it was his choice. I'm not "trying to make an excuse", and Ray never made excuses. I look at it this way, If he was actually unable to stick and move, and keep Duran of his game, how would he be able to slip, pull, bob and weave so well, that Duran was frustrated to the point he quit?
It's all good. This is why boxing is so much fun to talk about. I'll admit, I'm a homer, and I defend Ray all the time. But I really like Duran too, and felt he was one of the best P4P fighters of all time. Anyway, great post! JMHO

[QueensburyRules]

- -Early rounds Ray eats a manos de piedra left hook that put him in the ozone for several rounds.

It was so easy for Duran that he started clowning Ray to drop the last couple of rounds. Ray announced his retirement after this fight in what would become his signature career move.

[Willie Pep 229]

- -Early rounds Ray eats a manos de piedra left hook that put him in the ozone for several rounds.

It was so easy for Duran that he started clowning Ray to drop the last couple of rounds. Ray announced his retirement after this fight in what would become his signature career move.

I remember a post fight interview with Cosell; Cowell with his usual passive aggressive insulting manner chided SRL four his lack of performance in the early-middle rounds, Leonard, a touch annoyed (referencing the punch you are referring to) stated it took a few rounds to shake off that punch.

[mrbig1]

Dreamroom All I can say is go O's, I grew up in the great state of Maryland.

[edgarg]

This is my top 20 list, which will remain fluid, that way adjustments can be made over time.

1- Ray Robinson

2- Willie Pep

3- Archie Moore

4- Ezzard Charles

5- Harry Greb

6- Roberto Duran

7- Manny Pacquiao

8- Barney Ross

9- Benny Leonard

10- Sam Langford

11- Mickey Walker

12- Henry Armstrong

13- Tiger Flowers

14- Jake LaMotta

15- Jack Dempsey

16- Ray Leonard

17- Emile Griffith

18- Tony Canzoneri

19- Roy Jones Jr

20- Ike Williams

Plenty of honorable mentions who can easily be rotated on or off the list. In no particular order:

Jose Napoles
Pernell Whitaker
Julio Cesar Chavez Sr
Michael Spinks
Joe Louis
Jimmy McLarnin
Joe Gans
Charley Burley
Sandy Saddler
Holman Williams
Gene Tunney

Post up your lists!

Langford, Flowers, LaMotta, Leonard, Williams, and one other shouldn't be there. Jack Johnson, Ted"Kid" Lewis, Tyson, J.C. Chavez, Joe Louis, should.
There are some honourable mentions that should be there, like, most of those I've deleted from the top list, plus Carlos Ortiz, Macho Camacho, Vitali Klitschko, Harold Johnson, Duilio Loi, Luis Rodriguiz,{ Niccolino Locche could be in the top list} and more....

There are SO MANY deserving boxers that it's really impossible to make a valid list.
Still ...your list shows a lot of thought. You may or may not know that several boxing historians have written that Benny Leonard's style ( a definite top guy) was very like Jack Johnson' s in many ways , and he had a boxing IQ almost the best ever.

[edgarg]

Dreamroom makes good points - don't agree with him on one point: that SRL chose to fight Duran's fight; Duran made SRL fight his fight.

Everyone trys to make that excuse for SRL's loss, but the simple truth is, he got outfought and couldn't keep Montréal Duran off him.

I totally agree with you, a smart point, that it was the other way round. Look at ther way Camacho beat him up retiring him for good, he was only 41.and much bigger with longer reach etc. Every time Camacho hit him sh shook with to his heels. Surprising actually...

[Willie Pep 229]

I totally agree with you, a smart point, that it was the other way round. Look at ther way Camacho beat him up retiring him for good, he was only 41.and much bigger with longer reach etc. Every time Camacho hit him sh shook with to his heels. Surprising actually...

I heard SRL say once that the Camacho fight was the only time in his career that he doubted himself, i.e. that after the first round he realized he had made a grave mistake and that he could not longer fight; he just, at that point, didn't know how to get himself out of it, but he really wanted to quit.

In short he said, without saying it directly, he fought scared.

[edgarg]

Solid list. Cant argue with most of those names. The reason I dont rate Ali or Johnson on a P4P basis, is because I dont think their success would carry over onto other weigh classes. Ali did too many things wrong from a technical perspectivehands at his sides, leaning back from punches, rope a dope, no body attack, etc., which works against slow heavyweights and smaller opponents but not when all things are equal in lower divisions. Same with Johnson. The key to much of his success was his distinct size advantage over most of his opponents.

Johnson was only 6' tall;, with a 74" reach and best fighting weight of 185 lbs. He neglected training after he became champ and was a heavy boozer and womanizer. Still he held the title for nearly 7 years. He mostly played with his opponents, most publicly with Sam Langford who had the same reach but badly outweighed, He KD Langford 3 times and after that held him up to prevent him going down again several times. All through the fight he was carrying on conversations with ringsiders. He never seemed to have a problem in any fight whilst Champ.

The fact is that he was far superior to every other fighter during his time. regardless of size. He could do everything, For example Ali called himself The Greatest, but Johnson , according to many boxing experts, could do everything Ali could and much better, also things that Ali and others, couldn't do.