The Top 20 All-Time Greatest P4P List

[Willie Pep 229]

- -Charles an all time LH and P4P fighter with multiple defenses of the unified hvy title past his best weight.

What grade U in?

Yea and he beat Moore three times: UD (10), MD, (10) and KO (8)

Do you know why their 1948 fight was scheduled for 15 rounds? There is no mention by Boxrec of a title go.

[QueensburyRules]

Yea and he beat Moore three times: UD (10), MD, (10) and KO (8)

Do you know why their 1948 fight was scheduled for 15 rounds? There is no mention by Boxrec of a title go.

- -Joe Baski also 15 rd as well as Joey Maxim in that time frame of non title fights. Dunno other than they were still having 20rd fights if not more back then, quite a different sport than today.

[dreamroom]

1. Langford
2. Greb
3. Robinson
4. Armstrong
5. Charles
6. Pep
7. B. Leonard
8. Duran
9. Gans
10. Moore
11. Walker
12. R. Leonard
13. Ross
14. Mayweather
15. Conn
16. Canzoneri
17. Jones
18. Pacquiao
19. Monzon
20. Tunney

I gotta ask, I keep seeing people putting Duran over Leonard. Duran Lost to Benitez, Hearns and Hagler. Ray beat all three. Duran lost 2 of 3 H2H with Leonard. The fight in which he beat Leonard, they went toe to toe for 15 rounds. If Ray would've fought his fight, and didn't try to prove he could slug it out with Duran, he would've won that fight too. I'm curious as to why posters continue to rank Duran above Leonard on the P4P list.

[JAB5239]

I gotta ask, I keep seeing people putting Duran over Leonard. Duran Lost to Benitez, Hearns and Hagler. Ray beat all three. Duran lost 2 of 3 H2H with Leonard. The fight in which he beat Leonard, they went toe to toe for 15 rounds. If Ray would've fought his fight, and didn't try to prove he could slug it out with Duran, he would've won that fight too. I'm curious as to why posters continue to rank Duran above Leonard on the P4P list.

Saying Leonard would if he had fought his fight is like saying Duran would have won the rematch had he not gained so much weight between fights. It's irrelevant and not provable.

Duran ranks higher for me for moving up more divisions and being great. Head to head isn't the end all of a Pep conversation. At the end of the day its all a matter of opinion. I like to argue about it, but none of us can prove our list is better than any other when discussing all time greats.

[dreamroom]

Saying Leonard would if he had fought his fight is like saying Duran would have won the rematch had he not gained so much weight between fights. It's irrelevant and not provable.

Duran ranks higher for me for moving up more divisions and being great. Head to head isn't the end all of a Pep conversation. At the end of the day its all a matter of opinion. I like to argue about it, but none of us can prove our list is better than any other when discussing all time greats.

Fair enough. And yeah, it's all opinion. I remember the run up to Leonard - Duran 1, the subject was Ray was fast, but he wouldn't be able to hold up to Duran's power, Duran will knock him out, "hands of stone" bla bla bla. Even here in Baltimore, I remember everybody saying the only way Ray could win was to stay away from him. Every time Ray beat somebody, it was always "Yeah but" he hasn't fought (fill in the blank) yet. Duran should certainly be in the conversation, for a lot of the same reasons Ray should be. I just remember that era as being very tough. Ray never ducked anybody. When your fighting for a belt against the likes of Duran, Hearns, Hagler, who he moved up in weight to fight, he certainly fought the best.
And yes, it is a lot of fun to discuss. Another question for you; why doesn't Manny get more respect on these lists? He's moved up and won more divisions than any other fighter in history.

[JAB5239]

Fair enough. And yeah, it's all opinion. I remember the run up to Leonard - Duran 1, the subject was Ray was fast, but he wouldn't be able to hold up to Duran's power, Duran will knock him out, "hands of stone" bla bla bla. Even here in Baltimore, I remember everybody saying the only way Ray could win was to stay away from him. Every time Ray beat somebody, it was always "Yeah but" he hasn't fought (fill in the blank) yet. Duran should certainly be in the conversation, for a lot of the same reasons Ray should be. I just remember that era as being very tough. Ray never ducked anybody. When your fighting for a belt against the likes of Duran, Hearns, Hagler, who he moved up in weight to fight, he certainly fought the best.
And yes, it is a lot of fun to discuss. Another question for you; why doesn't Manny get more respect on these lists? He's moved up and won more divisions than any other fighter in history.

Ray looked and talked like a pretty boy. Everyone was expecting him to get knocked off back then. In the ring he was a Stone cold assassin though. Had he fought more he would probably place higher. But boxing is a business and he was a businessman extraordinaire so either way he has come out on top of life.

Manny will rank higher in the years to come, I have little doubt about that.

I played football in Overlea, Maryland when I was a kid. Are you familiar with the area? We traveled from Rhode Island, our 15 and under state championship team against Maryland's. Didn't end well for us. Felt like we were playing a college team!! Good times though!

[dreamroom]

Ray looked and talked like a pretty boy. Everyone was expecting him to get knocked off back then. In the ring he was a Stone cold assassin though. Had he fought more he would probably place higher. But boxing is a business and he was a businessman extraordinaire so either way he has come out on top of life.

Manny will rank higher in the years to come, I have little doubt about that.

I played football in Overlea, Maryland when I was a kid. Are you familiar with the area? We traveled from Rhode Island, our 15 and under state championship team against Maryland's. Didn't end well for us. Felt like we were playing a college team!! Good times though!

I am familiar with Overlea area. Yes football is very competitive here. It's kind of weird though. The youth football programs here are at a very high level. There are kids in rec ball here in the Baltimore area that could make most high school varsity squads in other areas, but can't make the JV squad in school. I coached an 8-10 rec team here. My D-line ran twists, slants and dropped back in coverage for zone blitzing! At that young age, most already had 5 years playing experience. I was a skinny kid, and got my clock cleaned on the regular here in rec ball. lol I couldn't make first string on any football team until my 2nd year in the marine corps.
Anyway, back to boxing, your whole post is spot on. I can tell that you followed Rays career pretty closely, or at least followed boxing pretty closely. I couldn't believe how many people here were kind of hoping he would loose. His speed was amazing. I was the only person in my family and circle of friends that was rooting for Ray on fight night. I think it might have been his flamboyant style. It was the same around here with Ali. Everybody I knew rooted for Frazier, or whoever was fighting Ali at the time, back in the day. I always favored speed and technique over punchers, although I love Mexican fighters and Mickey Ward. Is it me, or does everybody think of the 3-7 combo every time I hear Mickey's name?

[soul_survivor]

Ray looked and talked like a pretty boy. Everyone was expecting him to get knocked off back then. In the ring he was a Stone cold assassin though. Had he fought more he would probably place higher. But boxing is a business and he was a businessman extraordinaire so either way he has come out on top of life.

Manny will rank higher in the years to come, I have little doubt about that.

I played football in Overlea, Maryland when I was a kid. Are you familiar with the area? We traveled from Rhode Island, our 15 and under state championship team against Maryland's. Didn't end well for us. Felt like we were playing a college team!! Good times though!

Yeah, Ray had few fights, especially for his era but look at that quality, Benitez, Duran x3, Hearns x2, Hagler and that's only the "famous" names. Winning the welterweight title and then unifying, in the divisions best era imo was remarkable, then beating one of the greatest ever middleweights after years away is even more special. Manny is one of the greatest but he doesn't have those achievements.

[Willie Pep 229]

Yeah, Ray had few fights, especially for his era but look at that quality, Benitez, Duran x3, Hearns x2, Hagler and that's only the "famous" names. Winning the welterweight title and then unifying, in the divisions best era imo was remarkable, then beating one of the greatest ever middleweights after years away is even more special. Manny is one of the greatest but he doesn't have those achievements.

Jab has a bad (good) habit of looking at the game through the lenz of a fight fan and sometimes misses what the casuals (general sports fans) are thinking.

PAC Man will never be as famous as SRL.

Wasn't an American, fought at time when boxing wasn't as embraced as it was in the '80s, Gen Z barely knows his name (He's not MMA.), fought too many Mexicans (his best fights) not enough American idols, and he wasn't a 'pretty boy.' Americans like pretty boys.

PAC Man was a fighter's fighter; will be better remember by fight fans than sports fans. See: Dempsey - Greb.

[soul_survivor]

Jab has a bad (good) habit of looking at the game through the lenz of a fight fan and sometimes misses what the casuals (general sports fans) are thinking.

PAC Man will never be as famous as SRL.

Wasn't an American, fought at time when boxing wasn't as embraced as it was in the '80s, Gen Z barely knows his name (He's not MMA.), fought too many Mexicans (his best fights) not enough American idols, and he wasn't a 'pretty boy.' Americans like pretty boys.

PAC Man was a fighter's fighter; will be better remember by fight fans than sports fans. See: Dempsey - Greb.

Na, Pacquiao is well remembered by sports fans ,still gets mentioned on sports programmes here in the UK.