Ali vs. Louis- Tale Of The Tape (Comparisons)

[butterfly1964]

Just because Ali hit his peak in 1967 doesn't mean that he would be unbeatable. Any fighter could have been beaten by something as silly as a style matchup. He still breathes air, so he didn't have unlimited stamina; he still moved on two legs, so he wasn't too fast for everybody; he still swung with hands, so he could still miss or be counterpunched.

He was an amazing fighter in 1967, but he didn't get a chance to prove his greatness at that time of his career because it was over in a flash. One could assume all he/she wants to, but it's still just speculation.

nice post, but IMO clearly the speed and power that ali demonstrated at that time would enable him to beat any fighter in their respective primes.

[DMikeS4321]

Louis, by TKO...

Louis probably generated as much power for his weight as any other heavyweight (possible exceptions being Marciano and Dempsey), but his biggest asset was his incredible accuracy. He seldom missed, and when he connected, he connected hard. It's hard to quantify, but there is a big difference between a George Foreman type of power and that projected by Joe Louis. Getting hit by Foreman was like getting hit by a bus; as many times as I've watched him, I've never felt that his punches LOOKED that hard; it was almost like they were in slow motion. You could SEE them coming, but you couldn't get out of the way. The proof, though, was always in the result. Louis's power was different, more kinetic than momentum. He had great handspeed and that, combined with accuracy, is what made his punches so hard. Ali generated decent power as well, but he wasn't primarily a one-punch knockout artist. The Liston KO was a fluke, if not a fraud. I've watched that punch dozens of times; sometimes I see it, sometimes I don't. Who knows...

To me, the deciding factor would be Louis's accuracy and his body attack. Ali could back-peddle, and he could always pull his head back, but you just couldn't give Louis your midsection or he would have you. The 70's Ali would lose if he tried the rope-a-dope; Louis wouldn't waste punches like Foreman did, and he wouldn't be foolish enough to punch himself out.

Another factor that I haven't seen in this thread is the "intimidation factor". I don't think Ali would psych Joe Louis like he did Foreman. Joe Louis would walk right through all the wild eyed jive Ali specialized in.

The 60's Ali didn't have the power. He would have to win the way he won almost all his fights at that time (except Liston II), through an accumulation of punches. He threw a lot and landed a lot but without crushing power. That worked well against his 60's opponents, but he couldn't wouldn't have the time to work that strategy with a puncher as accurate as Joe Louis. Louis would hurt Ali before Ali hurt him.

That said, I'm a big fan of Ali. He was one of the best ever, but the 60's and 70's were a golden age for boxing. I think most boxing fans who lived through that time are a little subjective about it. Same can be said about the 20's, 30's and 40's.

While it's true that post '50's fighters are bigger and better trained (from a scientific perspective), there is a toughness to earlier fighters. Previous posts have mentioned the lighter gloves of the old days; that cuts (nice pun!!) both ways; a fighter got HIT with those light gloves as well as hitting others with them. I think it's a wash.

All things considered, I think Louis wins 3 out of 4 in this matchup.

[butterfly1964]

Louis probably generated as much power for his weight as any other heavyweight (possible exceptions being Marciano and Dempsey), but his biggest asset was his incredible accuracy. He seldom missed, and when he connected, he connected hard. It's hard to quantify, but there is a big difference between a George Foreman type of power and that projected by Joe Louis. Getting hit by Foreman was like getting hit by a bus; as many times as I've watched him, I've never felt that his punches LOOKED that hard; it was almost like they were in slow motion. You could SEE them coming, but you couldn't get out of the way. The proof, though, was always in the result. Louis's power was different, more kinetic than momentum. He had great handspeed and that, combined with accuracy, is what made his punches so hard. Ali generated decent power as well, but he wasn't primarily a one-punch knockout artist. The Liston KO was a fluke, if not a fraud. I've watched that punch dozens of times; sometimes I see it, sometimes I don't. Who knows...

To me, the deciding factor would be Louis's accuracy and his body attack. Ali could back-peddle, and he could always pull his head back, but you just couldn't give Louis your midsection or he would have you. The 70's Ali would lose if he tried the rope-a-dope; Louis wouldn't waste punches like Foreman did, and he wouldn't be foolish enough to punch himself out.

Another factor that I haven't seen in this thread is the "intimidation factor". I don't think Ali would psych Joe Louis like he did Foreman. Joe Louis would walk right through all the wild eyed jive Ali specialized in.

The 60's Ali didn't have the power. He would have to win the way he won almost all his fights at that time (except Liston II), through an accumulation of punches. He threw a lot and landed a lot but without crushing power. That worked well against his 60's opponents, but he couldn't wouldn't have the time to work that strategy with a puncher as accurate as Joe Louis. Louis would hurt Ali before Ali hurt him.

That said, I'm a big fan of Ali. He was one of the best ever, but the 60's and 70's were a golden age for boxing. I think most boxing fans who lived through that time are a little subjective about it. Same can be said about the 20's, 30's and 40's.

While it's true that post '50's fighters are bigger and better trained (from a scientific perspective), there is a toughness to earlier fighters. Previous posts have mentioned the lighter gloves of the old days; that cuts (nice pun!!) both ways; a fighter got HIT with those light gloves as well as hitting others with them. I think it's a wash.

All things considered, I think Louis wins 3 out of 4 in this matchup.

you're forgetting one thing. ali had an iron chin. louis couldn't hurt ali as much as louis' other opponents. also i don't believe some one could gain power from a 3lb. weight gain. ali had basically as much power in the 60s as in the 70s. it's just that ali wasn't as fast as efore so he sat down on his punches, which made them more powerful. ali had great power by 1966, if you don't believe me, watch the williams fight, and the folley fight. the punches he hit them with were brutal and they were not by an accumilation of punches, or else it would've taken longer than 3 rounds to do away with williams. ali outclasses louis, cause louis never fought anyone like him.

[Skydog]

you're forgetting one thing. ali had an iron chin. louis couldn't hurt ali as much as louis' other opponents. also i don't believe some one could gain power from a 3lb. weight gain. ali had basically as much power in the 60s as in the 70s. it's just that ali wasn't as fast as efore so he sat down on his punches, which made them more powerful. ali had great power by 1966, if you don't believe me, watch the williams fight, and the folley fight. the punches he hit them with were brutal and they were not by an accumilation of punches, or else it would've taken longer than 3 rounds to do away with williams. ali outclasses louis, cause louis never fought anyone like him.

While Ali does show some good power in the Folley fight, he dominated Williams because he hit him so many times. Over 300 ****ing punches in 2 and a half rounds! If I can't recall, all of the knockdowns were all many punch combos. The first was a 3 punch combo, the second a 16 punch combo, the third a 5 pucnh combo, and the fourth was about an 8 punch combo.

[BKM-]

Maybe Folley had a granite chin though

[Brassangel]

Originally posted by butterfly1964:

nice post, but IMO clearly the speed and power that ali demonstrated at that time would enable him to beat any fighter in their respective primes.

That's just it, it's your opinion. You've seriously failed to address anyone's sincere points, evidences, and retorts. Even so, it's a pleasure having you here. Check out my Patterson vs. Tyson thread!

[hellfire508]

Ali wasn't a one punch KO artist like Louis. Ali hit hard, but not as hard as your making out Butterfly.

[Heckler]

I believe Ali would take this. It wouldn't be a push over as some people like to imply it would. The problem here is, Louis is a textbook, conventional fighter. I think he would really struggle against Ali's style.. Alis defensive style, the leaning back from the waist and lateral movement. The strange movement Of ali, and the odd angles of which he launched punches from would give Louis problems. Louis was prone to dropping his left which would be a huge issue against Ali whom was prone to launching a lead right cross which was very hard. Louis would try jabbing Ali on to the ropes, Ali with greater reach and a quicker jab would counter with his own whilst moving laterally which logically would be more effective. Ali would continually use lateral movement using his brilliant timing and comprehension of range burst in with punches from the periphery. Occasionally Louis would manage to bustle him against the ropes and launch his powerful combos, here Ali's heart and granite Chin would save him but he'd recieve alot of damage. All too often Ali's physical qualities are focused on, it would be his heart and ability to adapt in the ring that would be the defining factor. Louis's heart wasn't as great as Ali's, nor his Stamina. Id say Ali by KO in round 10 after a very tough fight, and Ali incurring significant damage in the process. If they were to have 3 fights i think its reasonable to suggest Louis would win 1.

[Heckler]

A 67 Ali had the power, especially when he sat on his punches and used his body.

[Heckler]

Louis probably generated as much power for his weight as any other heavyweight (possible exceptions being Marciano and Dempsey), but his biggest asset was his incredible accuracy. He seldom missed, and when he connected, he connected hard. It's hard to quantify, but there is a big difference between a George Foreman type of power and that projected by Joe Louis. Getting hit by Foreman was like getting hit by a bus; as many times as I've watched him, I've never felt that his punches LOOKED that hard; it was almost like they were in slow motion. You could SEE them coming, but you couldn't get out of the way. The proof, though, was always in the result. Louis's power was different, more kinetic than momentum. He had great handspeed and that, combined with accuracy, is what made his punches so hard. Ali generated decent power as well, but he wasn't primarily a one-punch knockout artist. The Liston KO was a fluke, if not a fraud. I've watched that punch dozens of times; sometimes I see it, sometimes I don't. Who knows...

To me, the deciding factor would be Louis's accuracy and his body attack. Ali could back-peddle, and he could always pull his head back, but you just couldn't give Louis your midsection or he would have you. The 70's Ali would lose if he tried the rope-a-dope; Louis wouldn't waste punches like Foreman did, and he wouldn't be foolish enough to punch himself out.

Another factor that I haven't seen in this thread is the "intimidation factor". I don't think Ali would psych Joe Louis like he did Foreman. Joe Louis would walk right through all the wild eyed jive Ali specialized in.

The 60's Ali didn't have the power. He would have to win the way he won almost all his fights at that time (except Liston II), through an accumulation of punches. He threw a lot and landed a lot but without crushing power. That worked well against his 60's opponents, but he couldn't wouldn't have the time to work that strategy with a puncher as accurate as Joe Louis. Louis would hurt Ali before Ali hurt him.

That said, I'm a big fan of Ali. He was one of the best ever, but the 60's and 70's were a golden age for boxing. I think most boxing fans who lived through that time are a little subjective about it. Same can be said about the 20's, 30's and 40's.

While it's true that post '50's fighters are bigger and better trained (from a scientific perspective), there is a toughness to earlier fighters. Previous posts have mentioned the lighter gloves of the old days; that cuts (nice pun!!) both ways; a fighter got HIT with those light gloves as well as hitting others with them. I think it's a wash.

All things considered, I think Louis wins 3 out of 4 in this matchup.

Ali had this TOUGHNESS, it was never shown in his prime because there was never a need to. He was incredibly tough, and against the ropes he could absorb what Louis had to throw moments before he tied him up. Louis might of had a brilliant accuracy and power but Ali showed he could use an effective method of defense on the ropes, using his gloves and elbows at weird angles to deflect punches.