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Ali vs. Louis- Tale Of The Tape (Comparisons)

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    #21
    This is my favourite heavyweight matchup. I love it.

    The same points are always raised when this matchup is brought up. "Ali is vulnerable to the left hook". "Louis could be outboxed". Lets look at the styles.

    The night Max Schmelling beat Joe Louis - he executed a perfectly thought-out plan. When had a tendancy to drop his left hand - after a jab, preparing for a left hook and after he threw the right. Jack Johnson pointed out this flaw to the Schmelling camp, and Schmelling nailed Louis with counter-right hands all night, before KOing him. Following this fight - Louis corrected the flaw, though at times did still make this mistake.

    Ali was always vulnerable to the left hook because of his pull-back, hands low style. Unlike Louis, Ali had the speed to get away with holding his hands low. His evasiveness prevented him from taking severe beating that a normal man would take. He was dropped by left hooks from Banks, Cooper and Frazier. Louis wasn't prime for SChemlling - just like Ali wasn't prime for Cooper and Banks. And was past it for Frazier.

    Now - Joe Louis was infact outboxed by Billy Conn for 12 rounds. Conn - a great light-heavyweight, who stood 6"1 and a mere 72 inch reach, weighed in at 174 for the fight. He was soundly outpointing Louis until Conn was put down hard, and out. Muhammad Ali was faster than heavyweight Billy Conn, and stood 6"3, 83" reach and weighed in the vicinity of 210 pounds. Conn did not have a reputation for a solid chin, Ali did. Ali could take bombs. If Ali used the ring - like the Terrell and Williams Ali, and used his reach and height advantage, he could do what Conn did - but better. Ali didn't invent the stick and move, but he was a master at it. He took it to another level though. He punched while moving - not just jabs, but right hands, hooks. He stung while he floated.

    The Walcott fight - first one - was past Louis' prime. However, Walcott deserved the nod over the 15 rounds. Louis was down twice, and outboxed. Joe Louis was vulnerable to a mover with a solid jab. Yet the fighters who troubled him with this - couldn't stay away, or couldn't take the blows from Louis. Remebering Walcott was no star at that stage of his career. He had lost 1/4 of his fights. Though he did have wins over Elmer Ray and Joey Maxim. Again, Walcott was 6"0, and a 74" reach. The bigger, faster and granite chinned Ali could succeed where Conn and Walcott failed.

    Onto Ali, he was primarily troubled by come-forward fighters who applied pressure, and jab a good jab. Ken Norton was the primary troubler for Ali - although, if you watch all three Norton bouts, you will see it was the flat-footed version that was troubled. Ali up on his toes bewildered Norton. Thus the non-stop dancing Ali from the 60s would most likely dominate Norton. Spinks - though well past Ali's prime, used pressure and a jab to beat Ali. Frazier, used pressure and a hook. Ali never faced anyone with the combination of power and combinations that Louis had. Foreman had more power, but nobody had combinations like Joe Louis. But the thing about Ali is - as he put it - "he hit me once and I'm gonna be gone". Ali in his prime was never hit by more than one - maybe two - punches at a time. He would get tagged, and move straight out of there.

    It is always said, "Louis would break Ali down with the combinations. Hook, right, hook." Truth be told, I can see Louis landing a fair few left hooks. But his combinations would not be a factor in this fight. Ali would not allow himself to be cornered by Joe. PLus, Joe didn't apply the pressure that was required to crowd Ali - and trouble him. Louis applied subtle pressure, though he moved forward very slowly - almost plodding.

    Ali could NOT rope-a-dope Joe Louis. That is suicide. He would be torn apart, and the referee would stop the fight. He was almost as powerful as Foreman, but alot more accurate and conservative - and didn't telegraph his punches. Ali would be TKO'd if he used rope-a-dope. However, prime Ali never did use it - so its not really an issue.

    The way I see the fight going - Ali utilizes the ring, jabbing Louis, keeping him at bay. He flurries several times every round, moxing up his combinations. It's when this happens that Louis will strike - landing a few left hooks. I can see Ali maybe going down once, depending on how cautious he would be. If you are in the ring with Joe Louis - you are gonna be cautious. Ali would pick up the pace in the mid-rounds, as Louis starts to tire - not because of stamina - but because of the constant landing jabs. The fight would be stopped by the referee in the 14th round, with Louis unable to continue.

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      #22
      Originally posted by Dempsey1238
      dont laugh about that punch.

      We all know that was the hardest punch EVER thown in the annuals of boxing history. Nothing less of a perfect punch will ko Liston in the first round.

      Liston was so daze he roll over. Marciano was feather fist compare to that punch vs Liston 2.
      I totally agree.

      That punch makes Foreman and Shavers look like ****ing *******.

      Comment


        #23
        A lot of people, including Ali fans, mock the punch that floored Liston in Ali vs. Liston II. In truth, Liston actually said that Ali crunched him. Liston was constantly spinning clockwise at an incredible rate, trying to chase a superbly conditioned Ali, so his chemicals were already scrambled. Ali hadn't thrown many punches yet, so that fast hand came out of nowhere. Liston said the room was spinning when he hit the canvas, and he just didn't have the heart to continue against a fighter as prepared as Ali.

        On to Louis vs. Ali.

        I think that Louis plods around the ring, using some decent counter-jabs early on. Unfortunately, Ali's left/right combos work wonders on Louis's questionable chin, and he falls earlier than the crowd hopes. If Joe does manage to land a few combos on Ali, it's likely that Ali would take advantage of the 9 second rest and proceed to tear his opponent apart. When Ali went down, it didn't take a whopper of a punch to put him there. Ali was smart, however, and he usually avoided giving his opponent momentum, adrenaline, and opportunity to do any more damage by hitting the deck. By popping straight back up, he demoralized his opponents who felt that they landed a big-time blow; then he'd catch a 9-second breather and regroup to avoid further mistakes. Ali had a solid enough chin to pull off such antics, often toying with his opponents.

        If Louis did manage to corner Ali--and I do mean if--he could do some serious damage. Ali was rarely cornered, and certainly not by fighters with Louis's punching skill. Frazier did some damage to Ali in all three of their fights when he could trap him, but Ali was a pinch slower by then. Louis had a great mind for the sport and could figure out his opponents, but I doubt that he could figure out a man who was a master at disrupting gameplans. Plus, Ali's punches would be really quick for that dropping left of Louis. All in all, I think it would be an entertaining fight where Ali would win decisively in the mid to late rounds.

        Ali by TKO.

        Comment


          #24
          ==================Now - Joe Louis was infact outboxed by Billy Conn for 12 rounds. Conn - a great light-heavyweight, who stood 6"1 and a mere 72 inch reach, weighed in at 174 for the fight. He was soundly outpointing Louis until Conn was put down hard, and out. Muhammad Ali was faster than heavyweight Billy Conn, and stood 6"3, 83" reach and weighed in the vicinity of 210 pounds. Conn did not have a reputation for a solid chin, Ali did. Ali could take bombs. ================

          **

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            #25
            ============Now - Joe Louis was infact outboxed by Billy Conn for 12 rounds. Conn - a great light-heavyweight, who stood 6"1 and a mere 72 inch reach, weighed in at 174 for the fight. He was soundly outpointing Louis until Conn was put down hard, and out. Muhammad Ali was faster than heavyweight Billy Conn, and stood 6"3, 83" reach and weighed in the vicinity of 210 pounds. Conn did not have a reputation for a solid chin, Ali did. Ali could take bombs. ======================

            ** Joe Louis was the only fighter to ever KO Conn. Conn did suffer a TKO loss in his 5th fight, his only one, hardly an unusual occurrance in a tough era for a beginning fighter. Conn had an excellent chin and took many good shots from Louis before folding.

            Now, when Ali faced Liston, one reason Liston was such a big favorite is because Ali was considered to have a shaky chin. He certainly is likely to have lost the Cooper fight by KO had the 4th round rest period not been extended.

            Comment


              #26
              ==========A lot of people, including Ali fans, mock the punch that floored Liston in Ali vs. Liston II.=====================

              ** Try simulating the punch. Get into an orthodox defensive stance. Now, leap back off your leading left foot onto your back right foot and deliver a crossing straight right as you do so. There is absolutely no power in such a punch. Contrary to another part of the Step'nFetchit "anchor punch" myth, Sonny didn't step into the punch. Sonny was in a vulnerable position having leapt forward to deliver a jab, but he was stationary, gathering up his hands and feet when the punch landed. He went down because he was off balance when the punch landed and he figured that's the spot he was looking for in the fight.

              In reality, the fight should've been ruled NC since Ali wouldn't go to the neutral corner and Walcott allowed the fight to go on before stopping the action seconds later to go talk to a reporter. Liston was never counted out, though he was starting to get bored while hanging out on the canvas!

              Comment


                #27
                Originally posted by LondonRingRules
                ============Now - Joe Louis was infact outboxed by Billy Conn for 12 rounds. Conn - a great light-heavyweight, who stood 6"1 and a mere 72 inch reach, weighed in at 174 for the fight. He was soundly outpointing Louis until Conn was put down hard, and out. Muhammad Ali was faster than heavyweight Billy Conn, and stood 6"3, 83" reach and weighed in the vicinity of 210 pounds. Conn did not have a reputation for a solid chin, Ali did. Ali could take bombs. ======================

                ** Joe Louis was the only fighter to ever KO Conn. Conn did suffer a TKO loss in his 5th fight, his only one, hardly an unusual occurrance in a tough era for a beginning fighter. Conn had an excellent chin and took many good shots from Louis before folding.

                Now, when Ali faced Liston, one reason Liston was such a big favorite is because Ali was considered to have a shaky chin. He certainly is likely to have lost the Cooper fight by KO had the 4th round rest period not been extended.
                I'm not questioning Conn's heart. It's his chin. He was floored by lesser opponents a few times. Krieger, Ray Actis and Cook floored Conn. I'm just saying in comparison to Ali - his chin wasn't that great. And yes, you are right about Ali coming into the Liston fight. His chin wasn't deemed to be good. Yet we know his chin was amazing, from his fights with Shavers, Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Lyle etc.

                Comment


                  #28
                  Originally posted by LondonRingRules
                  ============Now - Joe Louis was infact outboxed by Billy Conn for 12 rounds. Conn - a great light-heavyweight, who stood 6"1 and a mere 72 inch reach, weighed in at 174 for the fight. He was soundly outpointing Louis until Conn was put down hard, and out. Muhammad Ali was faster than heavyweight Billy Conn, and stood 6"3, 83" reach and weighed in the vicinity of 210 pounds. Conn did not have a reputation for a solid chin, Ali did. Ali could take bombs. ======================

                  ** Joe Louis was the only fighter to ever KO Conn. Conn did suffer a TKO loss in his 5th fight, his only one, hardly an unusual occurrance in a tough era for a beginning fighter. Conn had an excellent chin and took many good shots from Louis before folding.

                  Now, when Ali faced Liston, one reason Liston was such a big favorite is because Ali was considered to have a shaky chin. He certainly is likely to have lost the Cooper fight by KO had the 4th round rest period not been extended.
                  you're ******ed. 9 sec. don't mean crap. ali would have ko'd cooper by the 6th round.

                  Comment


                    #29
                    If you look at any sport more speed and agility combined with smarts and skill gives that person/team an edge.

                    Now if Ali does not use those advantages than he would be in for a long night. Regardless of Ali's chin getting hit cleanly by Louis may KO him.

                    If Ali uses those advantages, he can help nullify Louis advantage in punching power by slipping punches and picking of shots with his gloves. By doing this he can force Louis to get into a "boxing" match with him. Which, during Ali's prime, he was excellent at.

                    Comment


                      #30
                      Originally posted by butterfly1964
                      9 sec. don't mean crap. ali would have ko'd cooper by the 6th round.
                      True! The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

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