What makes SRR the greatest?

[GJC]

I'm a huge Hearns fan, problem I have with putting him as the GOAT or in those lofty reaches was that he was never the dominant champion at any of those weights.
Think he might have been about the best light middle around but i'd have liked him to have beaten McCallum to cement that.

[Southpaw16BF]

Tommy's accomplishments at LHW and JMW are too great to ignore. He also didn't duck, dodge, and pick his spots when it came to making fights happen.

Leonard was also a 5 weight world champion. His resume of wins is also stronger than Hearns. And when they fought prime for prime, Leoanrd stopped him.

I just Leonard was the better overall fighter, with the greater legacy. And proved when beating Hearns, and Hagler, something which Tommy cound't do. Leonard also defeated Benitez more impressivley.

And lets not forget Leonard was also the number #1 154lb in the world.

I just don't see how Hearns can be rated above Leoanrd personally.

[Obama]

Leonard was also a 5 weight world champion. His resume of wins is also stronger than Hearns. And when they fought prime for prime, Leoanrd stopped him.

I just Leonard was the better overall fighter, with the greater legacy. And proved when beating Hearns, and Hagler, something which Tommy cound't do. Leonard also defeated Benitez more impressivley.

And lets not forget Leonard was also the number #1 154lb in the world.

I just don't see how Hearns can be rated above Leoanrd personally.

Leonard is a 4 weight world champion really. Man wins the SMW and LHW title at the same time? Real legit. People made a big enough fuss over Pac forcing Cotto to come down to 145, imagine if he made him come down to 140.

Hearns was ahead on my scorecards against Leonard in both fights. In both fights he was drained. This I cannot over look.

Hearns broke his hand against Hagler in the first round. Nearly stopped Hagler on cuts. On the other hand, even Leonard's wife didn't think he beat Hagler. This I also can't overlook. Not to mention Hearns fought a superior Hagler.

Hearns also beat a better Duran. Hell Hearns resume is just a lot better period really.

Notable wins for Hearns
Clyde Gray
Harold Weston
Bruce Curry
Saensak Muangsurin
Angel Espada
Pipino Cuevas
Wilfred Benitez
Murray Sutherland
Luigi Minchillo
Roberto Duran
Mark Medal
Doug DeWitt
Dennis Andries
Juan Domingo Roldan
James Kinchen
Virgil Hill
Nate Miller

Notable wins for Leonard
Floyd Mayweather
Armando Muniz
Wilfred Benitez
Dave Green
Roberto Duran (x2)
Ayub Kalule
Thomas Hearns
Marvin Hagler
Donny Lalonde

How past it fighters do matters to me. Some people simply don't get around to fully prove themselves when they're prime. Shane Mosley is a good modern example. Margarito is the second best opponent he ever defeated, yet he was 37 at the time.

[THE REED]

this has been gone over a million times, i suggest doing a search on robinson in this section.

1,000,001.

[SplitSecond]

great thread, pity no one wants to answer the question as to how prime the fighters robinson fought were, and how they were ranked at the time

[Talon]

i would think prime mike tyson should be high on the pound for pound list

[Obama]

great thread, pity no one wants to answer the question as to how prime the fighters robinson fought were, and how they were ranked at the time

It's because it's been answered a million times. I'll copy one of my old posts just for you tho....




Undefeated Amateur Featherweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated Amateur Lightweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated & Uncrowned Lightweight Champion
Undefeated Welterweight Champion
5 Time World Middleweight Champion
And Nearly the Light Heavyweight Champion


Amateur Career:


Overall, Robinson had an open record of 85-0, winning both the Featherweight and Lightweight Golden Gloves Championships in the process. 65 of the wins came by KO, 40 of which took place in the first round.


Lightweight Career:


You're probably asking yourself, “What Lightweight career?”. Although a brief one, Robinson did in fact have a substantial Lightweight career. He beat the NBA and soon to be World Lightweight Champion (Sammy Angott) after all, whilst maintaining a record of 21-0 with 18 KOs. His additional notable opponents included Pete Lello and Maxie Shapiro.


Welterweight Career:


As a Welterweight, Robinson was undefeated. Going against the likes of Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, and Kid Gavilan, this was an impressive feat. Counting Robinson's actual amount of Welterweight fights is rather tricky considering he often mixed it up with Middleweights as well. Nonetheless I have calculated that it was about 58 fights. He won them all without draws, and did so with no real controversial victories, the closest to controversy being the first fight with Kid Gavilan. It's also important to note that whilst still being a natural Welterweight, Robinson had beat Jake LaMotta 4 out of 5 times.


Middleweight Career:


Robinson's MW Record before becoming World Champion for the 1st time
*Includes his winning of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Jake LaMotta (x5)
Vic Dellicurti (x3)
Lou Woods
Jose Basora
Jimmy Mandell
Tony Riccio
Freddie Flores (x2)
Freddie Wilson (x2)
Vinnie Vines
Artie Levine
Georgie Abrams
Eddie Finazzo
Ossie Harris (x2)
Henry Brimm (x2)
Don Lee (x2)
Earl Turner
Cecil Hudson (x2)
Steve Belloise
Charley Dodson
Aaron Wade
Cliff Beckett (x2)
Ray Barnes
Robert Villemain (x2)
Billy Brown
Joe Rindone
Bobo Olson
Jean Stock
Luc van Dam
Hans Stretz

Losses:
Jake LaMotta II

Draws:
Jose Basora
Henry Brimm

That's 43 Middleweight wins with only 1 loss and 2 draws upon winning the World Championship.


Robinson's MW Record from after winning the title for the 1st time to losing it for the last time
*Does not include his first winning of the title
*Does not include his last loss of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Holley Mims
Don Ellis
Kid Marcel
Jean Wanes
Jan de Bruin
Jean Walzack
Gerhard Hecht (Although declared a NC, for all intensive purposes it's a win)
Cyrille Delannoit
Randy Turpin
Bobo Olson (x3)
Rocky Graziano
Joe Rindone
Johnny Lombardo
Ted Olla
Garth Panter
Rocky Castellani
Bob Provizzi
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio
Bob Young

Losses:
Randy Turpin I
Joey Maxim
Ralph Jones
Gene Fullmer I
Carmen Basilio I


That's 22 Middleweight wins with 5 losses, but 1 was at LHW.

So lets do some math here, 46 + 26 = 72. Robinson essentially had 72 Middleweight fights before you could officially label him as washed up (when he finally lost his MW title for the last time). Of those 72 fights, he won 65, lost 5, and drew twice. One loss came in a fight where he was outweighed by 16 lbs, and three came after he returned from retirement. Randy Turpin's win over Robinson is perhaps the only really meaningful one. Yet when Turpin beat Robinson, Ray had already previously had 132 professional bouts. Everyone who beat Robinson, aside from Tiger Jones (who caught Robinson nearly just out of retirement), was a great fighter. The names on his resume speak for themselves, the man truly was the greatest.


Robinson's Unquantified-but-Detailed Complete Career Resume:

*Info below uses Ring Annual Ratings
*Hall of Famers in bold

Pete Lello (#3 LW – 1940)
Sammy Angott (#1 LW – 1940, LW Champ – 1941, #2 LW – 1943, #8 WW – 1945)
Maxie Shapiro (#8 LW – 1942)
Marty Servo [Undefeated] (WW Champ – 1946)
Fritzie Zivic (WW Champ – 1940, #3 WW – 1941, #8 WW 1942)
Maxie Berger (JWW Champ – 1939, #6 WW – 1940)
Norman Rubio (#10 WW – 1941)
Reuben Shank (#8 MW – 1943)
Tony Motisi (#9 WW – 1942)
Jake LaMotta (#6 MW – 1942, #1 MW – 1943, #2 MW – 1944, #3 MW – 1945, #1 MW – 1946)
(#5 MW – 1947, #3 MW – 1948, MW Champ – 1949 & 1950)
Izzy Janazzo (#2 WW – 1940, #8 WW – 1941 & 1943)
Vic Dellicurti (#10 MW – 1944)
Al Nettlow (couple close fights with Bob Montgomery, beat Maxie Berger)
California Jackie Wilson (#2 WW – 1941, #3 WW – 1942)
Ralph Zannelli (#5 WW – 1943, #4 WW – 1947)
Henry Armstrong (WW Champ – 1938 & 1939, #1 WW – 1940, #2 WW – 1942, #1 WW – 1944)
Sheik Rangel (#10 WW – 1942)
George Martin (beat Ralph Zannelli, Garvey Young, V. Vines, Pedro Montanez, Battling Battalino, Andy Callahan)
Tommy Bell (#1 WW – 1946, #2 WW – 1947)
George Costner (#5 WW – 1947, #2 WW – 1949)
Jimmy McDaniels (#4 WW – 1944)
O'Neill Bell (just beat George Costner, Jackie Wilson, and Fritzie Zivic back to back to back)
Joe Curcio (beat Fritzie Zivic, Cecil Hudson, and Johnny Green)
Vinnie Vines (beat Sam Baroudi and Jackie Alzek)
Ossie Harris (beat Tommy Bell, Reuben Shank, and Fritzie Zivic)
Cecil Hudson (beat Tommy Bell, Fritzie Zivic, Freddie Dixon, Ossie Harris, & Sheik Rangel)
Artie Levine (beat Jimmy Doyle, Marvin Bryant, Vic Dellicurti, Herbie Kronowitz, & Joe Agosta)
Georgie Abrams (#5 MW – 1946)
Jimmy Doyle (#2 WW – 1945, #7 WW – 1946)
Billy Nixon (beat Johnny Green, Buster Tyler, & Johnny Hutchinson)
Chuck Taylor (beat Frankie Abrams, Tony Pellone, and Honeychile Johnson)
Henry Brimm (beat Vic Dellicurti, Holman Williams, Joey DeJohn, Arte Towne, & Tony Elizondo)
Bernard Docusen (#3 WW – 1948 & 1949)
Kid Gavilan (#1 WW – 1948, 1949, 1950, & 1951, WW Champ – 1952 & 1953)
Bobby Lee (beat Livio Minelli, Billy Nixon, Nava Esparza, Dorsey Lay, Honeychile Johnson, Chico Varona, & Gene Burton)
Don Lee (beat Jimmy McDaniels, Vince Foster, Sheik Rangel, Joe Danos, Howard Bleyhl, Billy Tierney)
Earl Turner (beat Sheik Rangel, Fred Apostoli, Cecil Hudson, Cocoa Kid, Don Lee, Jackie Wilson, George Costner, George Duke, etc)
Steve Belloise (#2 MW – 1948, #5 MW – 1949)
Al Mobley (beat Fritzie Zivic, Georgie Benton, Honeychile Johnson, George Martin, Sylvester Perkins, Otis Graham, & Bert Linam)
Aaron Wade (#7 MW – 1945)
Ray Barnes (#7 MW – 1950)
Robert Villemain (#3 MW – 1949, #8 MW – 1950, #9 MW – 1951)
Charley Fusari (#3 WW – 1950, #8 WW – 1951)
Jose Basora (#4 MW – 1943 & 1944)
Joe Rindone (beat Ralph Zannelli, Paul Pender, Bob Murphy, Pierre Langlois, Joe Blackwood, Charley Zivic, & Henry Lee)
Bobo Olson (#3 MW – 1952, MW Champ – 1953 & 1954, #1 MW – 1955)
Bobby Dykes (#2 WW – 1952, #5 MW – 1953)
Jean Stock (beat Randy Turpin, Bobby Dawson, Omar Kouidri, Cyrille Delannoit, Robert Charron, Edouard Tenet)
Luc van Dam (beat Jean Stock, Cyrille Delannoit, Jacques Royer Crecy, Albert Finch, Bep van Klaveren, & Felix Wouters)
Hans Stretz (beat Randy Turpin, Jacques Royer Crecy, Al Mobley, Peter Mueller, Rudi Pepper)
(Carl Schmidt, Heinz Sanger, Alex Buxton, Johnny Sullivan, Franco Festucci)
Holley Mims (#8 MW – 1953, #3 MW – 1954, #6 MW – 1955)
Cyrille Delannoit (#5 MW – 1948)
Randy Turpin (#1 MW – 1951 & 1952, MW Champ – 1951)
Rocky Graziano (#3 MW – 1946, MW Champ – 1947, #10 MW – 1948 & 1951)
Garth Panter (beat Pierre Langlois, Walter Cartier, and Earl Turner)
Rocky Castellani (#1 MW – 1953, #2 MW – 1954, #5 MW – 1955)
Gene Fullmer (#1 MW – 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #2 MW – 1957 & 1958, #1 MW – 1959, 1960, 1961, & 1962)
Carmen Basilio (WW Champ – 1955 & 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #1 MW – 1958)
Denny Moyer (#9 MW – 1961, #6 MW – 1962, JMW Champ – 1963, #9 MW – 1968, #2 MW – 1969)
Ralph Dupas (#2 WW – 1961, #3 WW – 1962, #4 WW – 1963, JMW Champ – 1963)
Yoland Leveque (beat Bennie Briscoe, Jacques Marty, Art Hernandez, & Bo Hogberg)

[them_apples]

It would be great if some of the history posters in here could help fill in some blanks for me. It's one thing to read about him in Wiki, or other places, but you guys have a lot of the background knowledge that isn't exactly in these common articles. I have basic common knowledge on the man... have read some of his career specifics and seen footage of his fights, but wish to learn more in depth knowledge about him...

I suppose the biggest questions I have:



1. What was his single greatest accomplishment?



2. Who were his BIGGEST wins?

a. How old were they?

b. What wins did THEY have?

c. Were they prime? If so, where were they ranked at the time?



3. What sets SRR aside from the other TOP ATGs?



4. Do you think he will ever be surpassed on the ATG list? And if so, what would that said fighter have to accomplish? (I realize this is a highly opinionated question)



5. Why would you rank SRR OVER Henry Armstrong? (Feel free to list facts about Armstrongs career)



6. Physical: Why is it so hard to beat SRR in mythical matchups? What were his greatest strengths?



Thanks for anyone who can fill in some of these blanks... I just feel as a huge boxing fan I don't know enough about the greatest fighter of all time.

I don't consider him the greatest. My money is on Ali. not because Ali proclaimed it, but because of Ali's resume. He fought damn near everyone and came out on top as some point or another. He fought the best heavyweights ever to grace the ring. He overcame odds by the handfull.


Robinson has a great resume, but a lot of it comes from the amount of fights he had, which I don't consider a good gauge for greatness. There are 2 many spots available for the no.2 spot so I won't answer that.

[THE REED]

Leonard is a 4 weight world champion really. Man wins the SMW and LHW title at the same time? Real legit. People made a big enough fuss over Pac forcing Cotto to come down to 145, imagine if he made him come down to 140.

Hearns was ahead on my scorecards against Leonard in both fights. In both fights he was drained. This I cannot over look.

Hearns broke his hand against Hagler in the first round. Nearly stopped Hagler on cuts. On the other hand, even Leonard's wife didn't think he beat Hagler. This I also can't overlook. Not to mention Hearns fought a superior Hagler.

Hearns also beat a better Duran. Hell Hearns resume is just a lot better period really.

Notable wins for Hearns
Clyde Gray
Harold Weston
Bruce Curry
Saensak Muangsurin
Angel Espada
Pipino Cuevas
Wilfred Benitez
Murray Sutherland
Luigi Minchillo
Roberto Duran
Mark Medal
Doug DeWitt
Dennis Andries
Juan Domingo Roldan
James Kinchen
Virgil Hill
Nate Miller

Notable wins for Leonard
Floyd Mayweather
Armando Muniz
Wilfred Benitez
Dave Green
Roberto Duran (x2)
Ayub Kalule
Thomas Hearns
Marvin Hagler
Donny Lalonde

How past it fighters do matters to me. Some people simply don't get around to fully prove themselves when they're prime. Shane Mosley is a good modern example. Margarito is the second best opponent he ever defeated, yet he was 37 at the time.

You're way to bitter about me asking some specific questions... The very first person that posts in here didn't have the slightest problem with giving me some info. If you don't like thread, you don't have to be in here.

Thanks for your input anyways.

[cotto16]

You're way to bitter about me asking some specific questions... The very first person that posts in here didn't have the slightest problem with giving me some info. If you don't like thread, you don't have to be in here.

Thanks for your input anyways.

Agreed........