My Opinion on Sonny Liston

[Willie Pep 229]

I hold no opinion on Sonny Liston anymore than I do on Marciano or Louis.

He appeared on the cusp of my knowledge. I was 10 years old, watching and understanding my first fight. I saw Liston lay down against Ali in Lewiston.

Everything else about 'Liston' is history to me, not a first hand experience

Everything else I know about Liston comes with the same validity, or lack of validity, that comes with all the evaluations of fighters from the past.

The hyperbole of newspaper accounts.
Limited and/or distorted film presentations.
Political promotions, challenges, claims.
The 'stories' and 'claims of old fighters.
The 'stories' of old men, seconds, trainers, Etc.
Biographies written with an agenda.

Sonny Liston was my cusp. My only first hand account of the man was a dismal one. All my other knowledge about the man is as valid as my opinion of Loius, Marciano, Dempsey. All thorough the filter of other men.

My Liston experience is a paradox.

Clay-Liston I is as distant to me as a Dempsey fight. I can only know so much and at the mercy of others bias.

But Ali-Liston II is a first-hand memory.

That memory tends to t-rump any opinion I can conjure for his earlier fights.

I probably would have been less moved by Lewiston if I had been ten years older and saw Liston of 1959.

Or if I has been five years younger and Lewiston was only history to me, like the rest of Liston's career is.

It is difficult for me to evaluate Liston. One devastating appearance dominates my view.

But, that's only because I appeared on the scence just at that ugly moment.

My first fight: Lewiston.

Actually I'm surprised I became a fan.

[Mr Mitts]

It will be pretty hard to convince anyone that you don't hold a single opinion on Liston. By your given criterion you couldn't have an opinion on anyone before Liston either. Does that mean George Washington too?

There is enough film that a man of your interests would have an opinion on Liston. Or did you mean another kind of opinion other than boxing? I guess you must have. I know someone made some foolish accusations on you.

Liston was a thug. I imagine he was a good guy to have along if you wanted to collect a debt, and apparently he did some of that.

Liston was a bully. Do you not believe that? He stuffed a cop into a garbage can. I don't like Liston, I think he was a great pugilist though. I may sympathize with his upbringing without liking him. I can dislike him just from known actions, without a conversation on his couch. But who knows, including me, if after a conversation on his couch I might not like him more?

The only two jobs I have heard of him working are not big on recruiting nice guys. It is my long held opinion that nice people never become loan shark assistants.

[QueensburyRules]

I hold no opinion on Sonny Liston anymore than I do on Marciano or Louis.

He appeared on the cusp of my knowledge. I was 10 years old, watching and understanding my first fight. I saw Liston lay down against Ali in Lewiston.

Everything else about 'Liston' is history to me, not a first hand experience

Everything else I know about Liston comes with the same validity, or lack of validity, that comes with all the evaluations of fighters from the past.

The hyperbole of newspaper accounts.
Limited and/or distorted film presentations.
Political promotions, challenges, claims.
The 'stories' and 'claims of old fighters.
The 'stories' of old men, seconds, trainers, Etc.
Biographies written with an agenda.

Sonny Liston was my cusp. My only first hand account of the man was a dismal one. All my other knowledge about the man is as valid as my opinion of Loius, Marciano, Dempsey. All thorough the filter of other men.

My Liston experience is a paradox.

Clay-Liston I is as distant to me as a Dempsey fight. I can only know so much and at the mercy of others bias.

But Ali-Liston II is a first-hand memory.

That memory tends to t-rump any opinion I can conjure for his earlier fights.

I probably would have been less moved by Lewiston if I had been ten years older and saw Liston of 1959.

Or if I has been five years younger and Lewiston was only history to me, like the rest of Liston's career is.

It is difficult for me to evaluate Liston. One devastating appearance dominates my view.

But, that's only because I appeared on the scence just at that ugly moment.

My first fight: Lewiston.

Actually I'm surprised I became a fan.

- - Pep, strange you say Liston laid down when in fact the fight was stopped with them fighting each other after Walcott had to wrestle Ali with difficulty away from Liston to the neutral corner.

Nat Fleischer had got in on the controversy by interfering with the timekeeper's job.

A clear Ali DQ for fighting Walcott with Liston the champ again and Ali shuttered in the backwaters of boxing until Liston retires or is beat. What happened is the reason the fight was held in the remote backwaters of the US when Fraud becomes Farce...

[Anomalocaris]

I don't think Ali knew about it but if ever the fix was in it was that bout.

Whether Sonny had had enough of being exploited (in addition to the drugs, booze and old age crippling him), the Mafia or the Nation of Islam is moot.

The man who walked through Williams like a 747 through a flyswatter would not even be stunned by that punch.

[Bronson66]

I don't think Ali knew about it but if ever the fix was in it was that bout.

Whether Sonny had had enough of being exploited (in addition to the drugs, booze and old age crippling him), the Mafia or the Nation of Islam is moot.

The man who ealked through Williams like a 747 through a flyswatter would not even be stunned by that punch.

JERRY IZENBERG,the boxing writer swore he heard Ali furiously shout at the prone Sonny,"get up you bum nobody will believe this."
I think Sonny went into the tank,so did his sparring partner Foneda Cox who taxed Liston about it saying," why didn't you let me know, I put a bundle on you?" He said Liston replied ,"if I had done,with your big mouth ,we'd both be wearing cement boots."

I don't think Ali knew anything about it.

[Anomalocaris]

JERRY IZENBERG,the boxing writer swore he heard Ali furiously shout at the prone Sonny,"get up you bum nobody will believe this."
I think Sonny went into the tank,so did his sparring partner Foneda Cox who taxed Liston about it saying," why didn't you let me know I put a bundle on you?" He said Liston replied ,"if I had done,with your big mouth ,we'd both be wearing cement boots."

I don't think Ali knew anything about it.

Yeah I knew this.

Whether the rumours of Geralidine and the kids being held hostage are true or not Sonny was not s*upid.

I don't know how to video link but on Youtube there is a rare clip of Ali in the late '70's saying that Sonny was his toughest opponent and the only fighter who terrified him.

He said he was a beautiful, scientific boxer with awesome power.

He should know.

[QueensburyRules]

Yeah I knew this.

Whether the rumours of Geralidine and the kids being held hostage are true or not Sonny was not s*upid.

I don't know how to video link but on Youtube there is a rare clip of Ali in the late '70's saying that Sonny was his toughest opponent and the only fighter who terrified him.

He said he was a beautiful, scientific boxer with awesome power.

He should know.

- - Ali would've been ruled medically unfit he was so hysterically frightened in the medical checkup. Ali got a lot of favors from boxing including not having the first fight cancelled after his NOI association was made public...

[Anomalocaris]

I do find it interesting that Liston knew very well how dangerous the NOI could be, just as bad as the Mafia.

We will never know but I just can't take that fight seriously and Sonny was a very bad actor.

He must have been utterly dismayed when that idiot Fleischer interfered and Walcott let him.

[GhostofDempsey]

I never bought into the notion he was a bully, in or out of the ring. He was a flawed man and often on the wrong side of the law, but considering his background and the times in which he lived I think his reputation was exaggerated by the press who never accepted him. Writers like Larry Merchant were very unkind to Liston. Back then, fans only had sportswriters to inform them of a fighter's prowess, skills and image. Liston lacked charisma and charm. America in the 1960s was not ready for a champion who happened to be an ex-con.

I've read all the biographies on Liston, watched the documentaries, read old ****zine articles. Watched him on film. I feel was was largely underrated and I've always believed his fights with Ali were fixed, especially the rematch.

[Bronson66]

- - Ali would've been ruled medically unfit he was so hysterically frightened in the medical checkup. Ali got a lot of favors from boxing including not having the first fight cancelled after his NOI association was made public...

Ali wasnt the slightest bit frightened he put on an act that sent his pulse rate through the roof,an hour after, his resting pulse was perfectly normal.
How can one be so spectacularly, and unerringly wrong so many times?