Tyson Fury?

[Dr Z]

At what point does his size cease being an advantage?
I'm assuming here that all things being equal everyone agrees he beats anyone up to Lhvy,175lbs.
What about over that , abilities being equal,when does his size cease to give him an advantage?
When his opponent is 6ft and 190lbs for example, or when?

A good question deserves a good answer.


Weight, height and reach are advantages as long as they don't greatly take away from stamina, quickness, and coordination.


The greater the variation in numbers the bigger the edge. Much depends on the fighters. Who the harder hitter is ,and skill level on offense /defense are key factors too.

There are weight classes ( too many of them ) for obvious reasons.


My rough chart * with the caveat that it depends on the other fighters attributes.




Weight - At 175

1-10 lbs = a very small advantage over your opponent.
11-20 lbs = is a noticeable advantage
21- 30 = is a big advantage


At 190-200

1-10 lbs = a small advantage
11-20 = an average advantage
21-30 = A decent advantage

Over 220 = the advantages of weight are less noticed.



Height

2" = a small advantage
4" = A clear advantage
6" = a big advantage


Reach

2" a small advantage
4 " a clear advantage
6 "+ a big advantage



The smaller fighter can overcome " size " but he is going to need to be the better puncher, the faster fighter, and he will need to be better / faster footwork. And of course a good chin always helps in upper weight boxing.

[Mr Mitts]

I don't believe anyone with the surname Klitscho would beat Fury if everyone is at their respective best. Vlad's favorite pose holding his left out straight will likely be nugatory or even negatory. Fury is tricky, Vlad is not. Fury gets in his opponents' heads more. Fury is longer. Fury is the better problem solver and improviser. KOing Vlad is something Fury would easily be capable of, not saying he would but it goes both ways. Vlad could not deal with a successful blitz from a good puncher. He panics under heavy attack and goes stilt-legged, like he did with Sanders and the other semi-good heavyweight who made him give up, Brewster.

I also think Vlad lacks too many key intangibles, heart and chin for sure being the most important. He gnaws canvas a little easily for a longtime champion, and he showed against Brewster he will give up on his feet when hurt badly. Ref, I won't be able come out after the 3 minute rest is over, just letting you know in advance. To me that is not a great champion but a heartless one.

But his greatest deficiency is not even those. Once hurt he cannot fight back. And worst of all, nobody flags to the ref and the opponent that he is hurt better than Vlad does. It is always obvious even from just pretty good shots. Even if he wanted to conceal the fact he could not. He gives up easy compared to other champions.

Since any ATG great merely has to tag him good once to start the process I am of the opinion that most ATG heavyweights would land hard at least once, and then it is up to those stumbly legs and weak heart and rocky chin, which never proved themselves to me in crisis. Even those quite less than him have this chance as long as they carry a solid punch, which is well proven. Vlad has marvelous tools, he punches correctly and his jab is a fence post to the mug. Still, he lacks the most important natural gift a top boxer must be blessed with, which is a marvelous set of whiskers to go with his skills. This augurs poorly for him in matches with many ATGs I think. Hell of a set of tools though.

[Dr Z]

A good question deserves a good answer.


Weight, height and reach are advantages as long as they don't greatly take away from stamina, quickness, and coordination.


The greater the variation in numbers the bigger the edge. Much depends on the fighters. Who the harder hitter is ,and skill level on offense /defense are key factors too.

There are weight classes ( too many of them ) for obvious reasons.


My rough chart * with the caveat that it depends on the other fighters attributes.




Weight - At 175

1-10 lbs = a very small advantage over your opponent.
11-20 lbs = is a noticeable advantage
21- 30 = is a big advantage


At 190-200

1-10 lbs = a small advantage
11-20 = an average advantage
21-30 = A decent advantage

Over 220 = the advantages of weight are less noticed.



Height

2" = a small advantage
4" = A clear advantage
6" = a big advantage


Reach

2" a small advantage
4 " a clear advantage
6 "+ a big advantage



The smaller fighter can overcome " size " but he is going to need to be the better puncher, the faster fighter, and he will need to be better / faster footwork. And of course a good chin always helps in upper weight boxing.

When time permits, I can add the negatives for older age, inactive fighters, and fat out of shape fighters and combine them all into a bigger chart with height , reach, and weight.


Age outside of a fighter prime



small disadvantage = 35 years old
a clear disadvantage = 37 years old
a big disadvantage = 39+ years old


Inactivity outside of the ring

Small disadvantage = 2 years in-active with no fights
A clear disadvantage = 4 years in active with no fights
A big disadvanage = 5+ years with no fights


Overweight


up 10- 14 Lbs over a fighters prime weight = Small disadvantage

Up to 15 -24 Lbs over a fighters prime weight = Clear disadvantage

Up to 25 + Lbs over a fighter prime weight = Big disadvantage

[Mr Mitts]

When time permits, I can add the negatives for older age, inactive fighters, and fat out of shape fighters and combine them all into a bigger chart with height , reach, and weight.


Age outside of a fighter prime



small disadvantage = 35 years old
a clear disadvantage = 37 years old
a big disadvantage = 39+ years old


Inactivity outside of the ring

Small disadvantage = 2 years in-active with no fights
A clear disadvantage = 4 years in active with no fights
A big disadvanage = 5+ years with no fights


Overweight


up 10- 14 Lbs over a fighters prime weight = Small disadvantage

Up to 15 -24 Lbs over a fighters prime weight = Clear disadvantage

Up to 25 + Lbs over a fighter prime weight = Big disadvantage

Pretty good. But I would have to disagree on one entry because I think I see clearly that 2 years inactive is a clear disadvantage, not a small one, especially I say with HWs.

[Dr Z]

Pretty good. But I would have to disagree on one entry because I think I see clearly that 2 years inactive is a clear disadvantage, not a small one, especially I say with HWs.

1 year initiative = Tiny disadvantage
2 years inactive = Clear Disadvantage
3 year inactive = Significant disadvantage
4 years inactive = Very big disadvantage
5 ) years inactive = Huge disadvantage


Better now. I think I will sharpen up the language a bit.

[Willie Pep 229]

1 year initiative = Tiny disadvantage
2 years inactive = Clear Disadvantage
3 year inactive = Significant disadvantage
4 years inactive = Very big disadvantage
5 ) years inactive = Huge disadvantage


Better now. I think I will sharpen up the language a bit.

I agree. I would say it simpler, you hit the 37th month, stay retired (SRL excepted).

But the one 'year inactivity' I think, needs to be qualified.

If we are talking about a 22 year old, on the climb to a title shot, taking a year off is indeed a ('tiny') disadvantage. Not smart at all.

But when a fighter hits 30 (we'll say top notich fighters, like a Fury or AJ or Usyk,) a four month rest, followed by four months of conditioning, followed by four months of training and then one fight, could prove a positive five years agenda for a 30 year old fighter (who doesn't still have to fight for money).

Only five fights over five years 30-34 might be the best pace, not a disadvantage.

[The D3vil]

After 230lbs, you start to sacrifice speed, quickness, endurance, & agility.

Perfect HW is prime Ali, 6'3" 220lbs.

[DeeMoney]

I think this is an interesting way to phrase the question, and we have to understand that size doesn't just mean weight (but also height and reach).

In regards to height, assuming there isn't any acromegaly or other gigantism disorder, then increased height is generally seen as a benefit, as it allows the fighter to carry extra muscle without being over weight (I will address muscle later). Additionally, height can give a fighter an advantage by keeping their head relatively higher and harder to connect with with full force. Of course there are relative disadvantages to being taller, you present a larger target to your opponent, and as your center of gravity is raised an athlete in general will require more effort to change directions (one of the reasons why female gymnasts tend to be shorter). All told the ability to healthily carry additional muscle balances out the decreased change of direction for the most part, but even if those two things are a wash there is one additional advantage that comes with height- REACH.

For the most part, with increased height comes increased reach, and though speed or good timing can defeat reach alone all else being equal reach tends to be a good advantage in boxing. Even at lighter weights I have always felt fighters with reach had great advantage, Mayweather's crazy reach being a good example of this. You get a smart fighter, with good reach, and good timing or speed and they are very difficult to beat. This was essentially Lennox Lewis once Manny Steward got a hold of him, and in a lot of ways the essence of the Super Heavyweight era. Heck, even a fighter like Deontay Wilder, was able to win so much not just due to power, but because he had the reach to land that power shot. Yes, having shorter reach can be used as an advantage, by being able to throw shorter punches while on the inside some fighters (Tyson, Marciano, etc) can land full power hooks while only having to have the punches travel a shorter distance. But as we all know, having to pay the price to get that close is difficult, and increased reach tends to be a benefit of size.

Lastly weight. Yes, there is a disadvantage to increasing weight- that being decreased stamina or more accurately the extra weight puts more of a strain on the body. Thats why we don't see 280 pound marathon runners. But, while boxing may be a sport that requires a lot of stamina, it is NOT marathon running, and there are benefits to extra weight. The obvious being mass and its direct relation to force, specifically being the force of a punch. Even better than just mass though is speed, but what many people ignore, is that muscles lead to more speed (if used correctly). So more muscles CAN lead to increased punching power, and even if its not all muscle, additional mass can add increased force to punches. There are other benefits to additional weight- if you are the type of fighter who grabs his opponent, leans on him, etc. Also, a thicker neck can help fighters handle punches.

As far as Fury specifically, I think his best weight was probably closer to 250, but his reach always was a huge advantage.

[Rockybigblower]

I don't believe anyone with the surname Klitscho would beat Fury if everyone is at their respective best. Vlad's favorite pose holding his left out straight will likely be nugatory or even negatory. Fury is tricky, Vlad is not. Fury gets in his opponents' heads more. Fury is longer. Fury is the better problem solver and improviser. KOing Vlad is something Fury would easily be capable of, not saying he would but it goes both ways. Vlad could not deal with a successful blitz from a good puncher. He panics under heavy attack and goes stilt-legged, like he did with Sanders and the other semi-good heavyweight who made him give up, Brewster.

I also think Vlad lacks too many key intangibles, heart and chin for sure being the most important. He gnaws canvas a little easily for a longtime champion, and he showed against Brewster he will give up on his feet when hurt badly. Ref, I won't be able come out after the 3 minute rest is over, just letting you know in advance. To me that is not a great champion but a heartless one.

But his greatest deficiency is not even those. Once hurt he cannot fight back. And worst of all, nobody flags to the ref and the opponent that he is hurt better than Vlad does. It is always obvious even from just pretty good shots. Even if he wanted to conceal the fact he could not. He gives up easy compared to other champions.

Since any ATG great merely has to tag him good once to start the process I am of the opinion that most ATG heavyweights would land hard at least once, and then it is up to those stumbly legs and weak heart and rocky chin, which never proved themselves to me in crisis. Even those quite less than him have this chance as long as they carry a solid punch, which is well proven. Vlad has marvelous tools, he punches correctly and his jab is a fence post to the mug. Still, he lacks the most important natural gift a top boxer must be blessed with, which is a marvelous set of whiskers to go with his skills. This augurs poorly for him in matches with many ATGs I think. Hell of a set of tools though.

And yet he didn't. Not even at his best.

[Marchegiano]

A good question deserves a good answer.


Weight, height and reach are advantages as long as they don't greatly take away from stamina, quickness, and coordination.


The greater the variation in numbers the bigger the edge. Much depends on the fighters. Who the harder hitter is ,and skill level on offense /defense are key factors too.

There are weight classes ( too many of them ) for obvious reasons.


My rough chart * with the caveat that it depends on the other fighters attributes.




Weight - At 175

1-10 lbs = a very small advantage over your opponent.
11-20 lbs = is a noticeable advantage
21- 30 = is a big advantage


At 190-200

1-10 lbs = a small advantage
11-20 = an average advantage
21-30 = A decent advantage

Over 220 = the advantages of weight are less noticed.



Height

2" = a small advantage
4" = A clear advantage
6" = a big advantage


Reach

2" a small advantage
4 " a clear advantage
6 "+ a big advantage



The smaller fighter can overcome " size " but he is going to need to be the better puncher, the faster fighter, and he will need to be better / faster footwork. And of course a good chin always helps in upper weight boxing.

It's funny to me y'all just circle jerk your opinions rather than, you know, learn anything new.


The top ranked male triathlete is 5'9" and 146lbs.


This idea ten pounds hits your reserves but ten inches does not is simply wrong.



Y'all explain to me how a 6'7" man who weighs only merely 180 pounds can possibly transfer heat out of his body at the same rate as a man 5'7" and 180 pounds.


never mind biology, what about the third law?