Does anyone still think the old time heavyweights were too small to be competitive in the modern era?

[The D3vil]

See, again. Making a fantasy version of these old fighters giving them new attributes to make it "fair". It's very childish and irrelevant. If you're gonna match up past fighters against present then take them for what they were. There is no prime "225lb Joe Louis" he didn't exist. And he sure as hell wouldn't be the same fighter he was if you start messing with attributes and history,

"New Attributes"

You mean, giving them the same "medicine" today's fighters have?

I stand by what I said, if Joe Louis had the same "medicine" today's fighters have, he'd be about 20-30lbs heavier.

[The D3vil]

Usyk was 19 years old.when he lost to Porter.
Jack Johnson won the Texas Middleweight title when he was 20.He stated he was in the condition of his life when he fought Jeffries,for which fight he was 208lbs.

Jack Johnson was impoverished & lived in the early 20th century.

He wasn't a highly-trained modern athlete with all the "medicine" that today's fighters have.

If he was, he'd be a lot bigger also.

[Bronson66]

Jack Johnson was impoverished & lived in the early 20th century.

He wasn't a highly-trained modern athlete with all the "medicine" that today's fighters have.

If he was, he'd be a lot bigger also.

My point,which seems to have escaped you,is what a fighter weighs in his teenage pre prime ,is no indication of what he would scale when his body is fully matured. Usyk turned pro as a heavyweight,at 6'3" he had the frame to develop into one , and the height and reach to do so.

[BKM-]

"New Attributes"

You mean, giving them the same "medicine" today's fighters have?

I stand by what I said, if Joe Louis had the same "medicine" today's fighters have, he'd be about 20-30lbs heavier.

He didn't have the same medicine, so he was 205 and that's the only version you can use in these fantasy matchups. Even if you beg santa for a bigger Joe Louis, he didn't exist.

You also don't really understand how this works anyway, Bronson66 is already explaining to you how fighters grow into their size at a young age, and you don't understand that sudden mass gain affects your attributes. With your Louis fantasy, if he bulks up he will lose his entire foundation: footwork. Joe is already not the fastest mover so a bunch of bullk is gonna slow him down and he can no longer set his traps and offense. And he already got knocked down too many times as it is, with all that bulk to slow him down he's gonna be slower on his defence to block or move out of the way from punches. Boxing is not a numbers game, some guys don't get better by adding them size, and you're pretending Louis is the exact same fighter after balooning him up

[Bronson66]

Y'all watched a smaller man use his physical advantage over a larger opponent and still refuse the idea that weight is a two way street that represents both advantage in power and disadvantage in stamina.


Not the first time you've read smaller men have more stamina either.


So, WTF? Why is this thread 12 pages long?



The thing is, when you get ****** upside down in weight you should be ****** upside down in power and stamina but all anyone ever wants to mention is big = more power doe. Cool, you know how much more stamina Marciano had than Fury? How about Dempsey? Can you guess how much longer Dempsey can keep a high pace than Fury? It should be ****** levels in Dempsey's favor but the way youse talk is like power is the only variable. Yes Wlad was huge, also Wlad punch like 12 times in a round. For a ****ing reason. Put out a punch count like Marciano and Wlad's sucking wind like a turbine.



Your fantasy fights are ****** because the terms you fantasize in are ****** terms.



Want to know who has the most power? Talk about resume not physics. Because who you KO'd is totes more important, better evidence, and less subjective than kinematic chains.

Can a small man beat a big man? Well **** most of human history for one. For two, you know, biology, and thirdly physics, the answer is yes. Saw a man give up 50lbs and dom anyway? Who cares, let's talk about how even smaller is a bigger size DISADVANTAGE even though Fury got OUTWORKED.


****ing hell, you don't realize how dumb as **** that is?




Better tell me you believe Fury can KO Dempsey. Better not tell me his ****ing size alone gives him a free pass like as if Jack GD Dempsey doesn't have gas for days. FFS. You watched Fury get OUTWORKED by a 230 and question if a 180 can do it too without even considering how much ****ing worse that is for Fury. Just considering how much worse it is for the lighter man. Exclusively. But you're not dumb as **** though and your opinion is just a respectable as any other. Sure, dumbass.

Fury was carrying a good 40lbs plus of blubber. His lifestyle ,and the fact that he is past his best proved his undoing

Usyk is not a small man he is as big as Ali ,heavier actually ,as big as Holmes,Liston,Foreman,and bigger than everyone who preceded them with the exception of those two cumbersome giants Willard and Carnera,whom he would positively ****.
Both of whom by the way ,had no problem with stamina , going the distance several times against smaller ,lighter men.
For every victory of a smaller man over a larger one that can be cited, three opposite results can be found.
By smaller I don't mean a fully fledged heavyweight 226lbs,6'3"who is big enough for anyone.
I'm referring to the likes of
Corbett v Jeffries
Fitz v Jeffries
Burns v Johnson
Dempsey v Carpentier
Carnera v Loughran
Schmeling v Walker
Louis v Conn

Why did Haye beat Valuev ,99lbs heavier and nearly a foot taller? Because at 217lbs and 6 '3"he was not only good enough,he was big enough to do so.

Why didn't he beat Wlad? Because he wasn't good enough .

For every Harry Greb, with his marvellous success against bigger men , there are dozens who could not overcome the size differential and Greb himself faltered when his celebrated rival Tunney matured and added both muscle and strength as he matured .

Ever wondered why Greb never sought fights with Fulton,Wills, or Firpo?


Did he perhaps recognize that there are limits to what a middle/supermiddle can achieve?
Even one as superbly gifted as Harry?

Does anyone really think Greb would have the success he enjoyed against the heavies of his era if he were taking on todays giants?

[IronDanHamza]

Fury was carrying a good 30lbs/40lbs of blubber. His lifestyle ,and the fact that he is past his best proved his undoing

Usyk is not a small man he is as big as Ali ,heavier actually ,as big as Holmes,Liston,Foreman,and bigger than everyone who preceded them with the exception of those two cumbersome giants Willard and Carnera,whom he would positively ****.
Both of whom by the way ,had no problem with stamina , going the distance several times against smaller ,lighter men.
For every victory of a smaller man over a larger one that can be cited, three opposite results can be found.
By smaller I don't mean a fully fledged heavyweight 226lbs,6'3"who is big enough for anyone.
I'm referring to the likes of
Corbett v Jeffries
Fitz v Jeffries
Burns v Johnson
Dempsey v Carpentier
Carnera v Loughran
Schmeling v Walker
Louis v Conn

Why did Haye beat Valuev ,99lbs heavier and nearly a foot taller? Because at 217lbs and 6 '3"he was not only good enough,he was big enough to do so.

Why didn't he beat Wlad? Because he wasn't good enough .

For every Harry Greb, with his marvellous success against bigger men , there are dozens who could not overcome the size differential and Greb himself faltered when his celebrated rival Tunney matured and added both muscle and strength as he matured .

Ever wondered why Greb never sought fights with Fulton,Wills, or Firpo?


Did he perhaps recognize that there are limits to what a middle/supermiddle can achieve?
Even one as superbly gifted as Harry?

Does anyone really think Greb would have the success he enjoyed against the heavies of his era if he were taking on today’s giants?

Great post as usual.

As for your last paragraph, yes believe it or not some idiots on here actually do think that.

[IronDanHamza]

Jack Johnson was impoverished & lived in the early 20th century.

He wasn't a highly-trained modern athlete with all the "medicine" that today's fighters have.

If he was, he'd be a lot bigger also.

How does any of this fantasy babble change the fact Usyk is a not a “natural Middleweight” like you’ve laughably attempted to claim?

[Marchegiano]

Fury was carrying a good 30lbs/40lbs of blubber. His lifestyle ,and the fact that he is past his best proved his undoing

Usyk is not a small man he is as big as Ali ,heavier actually ,as big as Holmes,Liston,Foreman,and bigger than everyone who preceded them with the exception of those two cumbersome giants Willard and Carnera,whom he would positively ****.
Both of whom by the way ,had no problem with stamina , going the distance several times against smaller ,lighter men.
For every victory of a smaller man over a larger one that can be cited, three opposite results can be found.
By smaller I don't mean a fully fledged heavyweight 226lbs,6'3"who is big enough for anyone.
I'm referring to the likes of
Corbett v Jeffries
Fitz v Jeffries
Burns v Johnson
Dempsey v Carpentier
Carnera v Loughran
Schmeling v Walker
Louis v Conn

Why did Haye beat Valuev ,99lbs heavier and nearly a foot taller? Because at 217lbs and 6 '3"he was not only good enough,he was big enough to do so.

Why didn't he beat Wlad? Because he wasn't good enough .

For every Harry Greb, with his marvellous success against bigger men , there are dozens who could not overcome the size differential and Greb himself faltered when his celebrated rival Tunney matured and added both muscle and strength as he matured .

Ever wondered why Greb never sought fights with Fulton,Wills, or Firpo?


Did he perhaps recognize that there are limits to what a middle/supermiddle can achieve?
Even one as superbly gifted as Harry?

Does anyone really think Greb would have the success he enjoyed against the heavies of his era if he were taking on todays giants?

A mix of abilities and the range in which the fighter chooses to carry them does not in anyway negate anything.


Usyk too put on weigh so I don't understand the analogy to Valuev and Haye, let's just stick with Usyk and Fury. Why did Usyk put on more weight? Because he wanted more power. Does this negate the fact that if Usyk was even lighter he would have the same amount of chin, and more stamina? Okay, what physics are negated by Usyk's choice to carry more power than he did at CW? Okay what biology was negated? Did Fury get outworked?

This is no longer a question of rules. This is a biological and physical question. Your names and dates are ****** evidence. Ain't no way for me to hide or sugar coat that for you so I'm going the other direction. You are denying science because Greb lost to Tunney doe? I'll just let that turd float.


Had Usyk came in 20 30 pounds lighter than he had, he would have been faster, could have managed a better workrate, and would have less power. Inarguable. The question is could he have given up some power for more workrate. Harry ****ing Greb and David Haye have **** all nothing to do with it and is JUST as ****** as me going but Fitzs fought bigger men weighing LESS than he did when he fought MWs doe like as if that means anything to any point raised.


It's a nonpoint and anyone who thought for a moment it isn't is a bit slow.

[Bronson66]

A mix of abilities and the range in which the fighter chooses to carry them does not in anyway negate anything.


Usyk too put on weigh so I don't understand the analogy to Valuev and Haye, let's just stick with Usyk and Fury. Why did Usyk put on more weight? Because he wanted more power. Does this negate the fact that if Usyk was even lighter he would have the same amount of chin, and more stamina? Okay, what physics are negated by Usyk's choice to carry more power than he did at CW? Okay what biology was negated? Did Fury get outworked?

This is no longer a question of rules. This is a biological and physical question. Your names and dates are ****** evidence. Ain't no way for me to hide or sugar coat that for you so I'm going the other direction. You are denying science because Greb lost to Tunney doe? I'll just let that turd float.


Had Usyk came in 20 30 pounds lighter than he had, he would have been faster, could have managed a better workrate, and would have less power. Inarguable. The question is could he have given up some power for more workrate. Harry ****ing Greb and David Haye have **** all nothing to do with it and is JUST as ****** as me going but Fitzs fought bigger men weighing LESS than he did when he fought MWs doe like as if that means anything to any point raised.


It's a nonpoint and anyone who thought for a moment it isn't is a bit slow.

Usyk added weight to his frame to not only have more power,but to cope with the pushing and shoving in the clinches from the bigger man ,and to be better able to absorb his punches ..
Usyk is nearly38 years old ,so he also is not prime ,but he has taken better care of himself.
He was in much better shape than Fury,who gassed because he was carrying over 40lbs of surplus blubber.

The Fury of a few years ago[against Wlad,] 44lbs lighter, and 9 years younger would not have done so
You and I had,[I thought ,]reached a point of reconciliation,you have a tendency to reach for the gratuitous personal insult very early in conversations,I'm going to refrain from responding in kind. So I'll leave it there.Wishing you, not only a Happy New Year but a healthy and prosperous one.

[ShoulderRoll]

To answer your question why (is it wrong to tale older fighters, bur envision them with modern training), is because it contradicts the general premise of the question.

Most modern heavyweights are bigger for two reasons: 1 they were raised in a post ww2 society that allows for healthier lifestyles and a taller populace. And 2, and this is the big one, they believe in modern training techniques, which they feel allowsthem to carry extra weight, without sacrificing much in way of speed, stamina, etc.

To re-imagine the question where older fighters are allowed to use modern techniques, in order to gain healthy weight for a fight, is essentially admiting that more weight (brought on by modern training) does make modern heavyweights better.

You missed a third reason, the most important one. Modern heavyweights are bigger because they don’t have to fight for 15 rounds, a situation where excess size would actually hurt them.