Beterbiev vs these past heavyweights

[billeau2]

Anyone's think beterbiev would beat the Jones who fought Ruiz. Or the best heavyweight version of James Toney? I'm just curious.

Wow... that is a really good Match up. Jones victory against Toney is burned into my brain. Hard for me to look objectively at this one unless we assume Toney was not at his best. Cannot see past the possibility that Jones makes Beter appear very ordinary. Beter has good technical skills and he does not have to wind up much, but Jones is so quick, beter has to catch him... Frankly I cannot see Beter catching Jones.

[billeau2]

I think the Cruiserweight Toney beats him comfortably. Artur is pretty basic. He just applies pressure and hits hard. Toney has proven he could take true heavyweight power, and looked his best while at cruiser.

Another really good match up. I do think Toney wins this, but I have some caveats: A lot of Toney's counter punching would be a challenge because Beter does not telegraph and throws good short shots. The real "trenches" would be when Beter comes forward and Toney tries to counter him...

Where I think the fight eventually "goes" has to do with angles. Toney uses them masterfully... Even Bivol who is fantastic is pretty much linear in his approach, the whole amatuer style is linear... Toney has the speed and skills to catch with his overhand at an angle.

[billeau2]

I see similarities Jirov to Bivol. Both guys fought/fight very well with volume, basic punches and off a strong line. I also find it difficult to evaluate Jirov except that he definitely shows skills on tape and in the fights we see. I just cannot compare him to Bivol just yet, would like to see more of Bivol.

Also, Calling Beter "basic" could mean a lot of different things. Lets take a guy we are all familiar with, Hank Armstrong and counter pose him with another such guy Archie Moore. Armstrong is IMO what we could call Basic. He used volume, different body positioning inside, always keeping his man at an angle to his forward shoulder and going backwards. Moore? threw every punch in the book, used a very elaborate guard position, a lot of counter punching involving timing, etc. One guy was basic the other was not, assuming one kind of agrees with my logic.

Obviously the point here is that being basic has no actual baring on the skill level of the fighter. Beter is basic in his fundamental approach, but imo this is a style and not a skill issue. It is still a legitimate POV to think Toney is a better fighter... But not necessarily because Beter has a basic approach.

[JAB5239]

Another really good match up. I do think Toney wins this, but I have some caveats: A lot of Toney's counter punching would be a challenge because Beter does not telegraph and throws good short shots. The real "trenches" would be when Beter comes forward and Toney tries to counter him...

Where I think the fight eventually "goes" has to do with angles. Toney uses them masterfully... Even Bivol who is fantastic is pretty much linear in his approach, the whole amatuer style is linear... Toney has the speed and skills to catch with his overhand at an angle.

Great point about Beterbiev not telegraphing his punches. When I said Artur was pretty basic, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was diminishing him as a fighter. He has Great fundamentals, and is incredibly powerful. I just don't think he can show Toney anything he hasn't already seen.

[IronDanHamza]

Jirov beat 3 Cruiserweight top 10 contenders and was the number 1 Cruiserweight for 3 years. He was also an Olympic silver medalist. I think "hype job" is a little harsh. Vasily was an extremely good body puncher who threw non stop. He didn't have Beterbiev's power, but I'd hardly say he was levels below him. In fact I think it would be an incredible fight that either man could win.

He did? Who were they? I thought it was zero, after a quick check I have him beating one Top 5 ranked fighter in his entire career....Arthur Williams.

His resume is total garbage, it's not even garbage, it's worse than that. Who did Jirov beat? Nobody.

I couldn't care less if he's an Olympic Gold medalist. David Price is an Olympic Bronze Medalist. Audley Harrison is an Olympic Gold Medalist. It's irrelevant to their pro careers.

He was the absolute epitome of a hype job. Did absolutely nothing of note of as a pro and has a resume not far off Jeff Lacy's. He's not even remotely close to Beterbiev's level as a fighter.

comes straight ahead pawing with shots looking to land his bombs. This plays right into the Cruiserweight Toney's hands. Toney was excellent defensively, and as a counter puncher.

Don't think so at all. He's not going to sit on Toney's chest and throw one punch at a time. That the only time Toney excels in any kind of way.

Toney's not "excellent" defensively. He's good defensively. He's not going to evade Beterbiev's punches for 12 rounds, is he? He never once did that in his career at any point agasint anyone worth anything of real note

I mean, I'm sure it would be competitive. Toney proved he could be competitive and even sometimes beat top, elite fighters but he never ever beat one comfortably and clearly and it ain't starting with a fighter the caliber of Beterbiev. Or are we living in some parallel universe where James Toney doesn't get hit consistently and lose rounds consistently every single time he fights someone ranked in the Top 5?

"Crusierweight" version again is a nonsense to me, there is no difference between the "versions". He had one fight of note there.

No doubt Toney took fights off. But when he was focused and at his best he was a handful for almost anyone.

Took fights off where? He didn't take fights off. That's nothing more than an excuse.. There is no difference between any version of Toney that stepped in the ring. He just proved time and time again he's not good enough to beat elite fighters in a clear or comfortable manner.

I know you don't like Toney, but he was a much more skilled fighter than Artur. Beterbiev certainly has more focus and discipline though.

Let's not start this crap. We are having a conversation/debate. Let's not start this "you don't like him therefore x" bullshit. I have explained ad nasuem that I have no dislike what so ever for Toney. There are a plethora of fighters that I actively dislike, Toney is not one of them. I just assess his career and abililty by what actually happened as opposed to the alernate reality that some fans like to put out there.

Beterbiev is a strong tough guy, but it's my opinion that the Toney that fought Jirov would pick him apart, just like he did Jirov. Maybe even easier because Artur wouldnt be throwing thr same volume of punches as Jirov. Who knows though.

Beterbiev is a very skilled fighter. That's not even up for debate.

Toney is also a skilled fighter. Don't see him as any way more skilled than Beterbiev. They both have skills and both have gaping flaws and limits.

There is absolutely, categorically, ZERO evidence what so ever that Toney could "pick apart" a fighter even close to Beterbiev's level.

He never "picked apart" any top level, elite fighter. He didn't even clearly beat a fighter of that description (outside of Nunn which he was being beaten clearly in before the KO). There is absolutely nothing to suggest that all of a sudden that starts with a fighter on the level of Beterbeiv, outside of alternative reality and fantasy world stuff.

[IronDanHamza]

Another really good match up. I do think Toney wins this, but I have some caveats: A lot of Toney's counter punching would be a challenge because Beter does not telegraph and throws good short shots. The real "trenches" would be when Beter comes forward and Toney tries to counter him...

Where I think the fight eventually "goes" has to do with angles. Toney uses them masterfully... Even Bivol who is fantastic is pretty much linear in his approach, the whole amatuer style is linear... Toney has the speed and skills to catch with his overhand at an angle.

Don't think there is any chance Beterbiev allows Toney to use any kind of angles.

Toney's feet are stuck in the mud and as flat as a pancake. Unlike Beterbiev who uses his feet very well.

The only time Toney ever excelled using angles or even just countering in general is when he's fighting someone like an old Iran Barkely who is just going to stand infront of him all night.

Anyone who has any kind of competent foot positioning or movement is going to nullify Toney's counterpunching massively and it literally showed every single time he fought someone of that description.

[IronDanHamza]

I see similarities Jirov to Bivol. Both guys fought/fight very well with volume, basic punches and off a strong line. I also find it difficult to evaluate Jirov except that he definitely shows skills on tape and in the fights we see. I just cannot compare him to Bivol just yet, would like to see more of Bivol.

Also, Calling Beter "basic" could mean a lot of different things. Lets take a guy we are all familiar with, Hank Armstrong and counter pose him with another such guy Archie Moore. Armstrong is IMO what we could call Basic. He used volume, different body positioning inside, always keeping his man at an angle to his forward shoulder and going backwards. Moore? threw every punch in the book, used a very elaborate guard position, a lot of counter punching involving timing, etc. One guy was basic the other was not, assuming one kind of agrees with my logic.

Obviously the point here is that being basic has no actual baring on the skill level of the fighter. Beter is basic in his fundamental approach, but imo this is a style and not a skill issue. It is still a legitimate POV to think Toney is a better fighter... But not necessarily because Beter has a basic approach.

They're almost polar opposites I would say.

Not only that but Bivol is 10+ times the fighter Jirov is from every angle you look at it. Skill wise and obviously career and resume wise it's about 100+ times that of Jirov who's resume is embarrasingly weak.

Jirov's resume makes Vitali Klitschko's resume look like Muahmmad Ali's.

[billeau2]

Great point about Beterbiev not telegraphing his punches. When I said Artur was pretty basic, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was diminishing him as a fighter. He has Great fundamentals, and is incredibly powerful. I just don't think he can show Toney anything he hasn't already seen.

I figured as much... Alas, it is a distinction some may miss and assume basic is bad. But if one really travels this rabbit hole, there are some differences between a fighter that chooses a very basic style from an assortment and when a fighter is exposed to a very lengthy amatuer career and becomes a pro with certain habits ingrained.

We see some fascinating attributes develop out of this process. Usyk uses a very well thought out and sophisticated system for head movements and certain other timing... Loma also, but both guys like the opportunity to be very physical and straight forward, and both guys are essentially fighting in an amatuer style.

Proof of this can be seen in the Usyk Bellew fight, where Bellew used angles and very polished technique to flumox Usyk for a while lol. Or when Usyk dominated Hunter physically in their match... Loma beat El Chocolate through sheer imposing himself on the smaller man.

Beter like a lot of Russian Eastern European fighters has adapted his approach from a quasi mixture. He comes forward very matter of fact, but someone really instilled the need to cut the ring down with him.

[billeau2]

They're almost polar opposites I would say.

Not only that but Bivol is 10+ times the fighter Jirov is from every angle you look at it. Skill wise and obviously career and resume wise it's about 100+ times that of Jirov who's resume is embarrasingly weak.

Jirov's resume makes Vitali Klitschko's resume look like Muahmmad Ali's.

I really have to look at Jirov's resume. How would you say they are opposites? I get that Jirov was more of a power puncher, but with respect to their style in the ring. I do think given just his victory over Canelo, that alone would give Bivol a tremendous resume advantage.

[billeau2]

Don't think there is any chance Beterbiev allows Toney to use any kind of angles.

Toney's feet are stuck in the mud and as flat as a pancake. Unlike Beterbiev who uses his feet very well.

The only time Toney ever excelled using angles or even just countering in general is when he's fighting someone like an old Iran Barkely who is just going to stand infront of him all night.

Anyone who has any kind of competent foot positioning or movement is going to nullify Toney's counterpunching massively and it literally showed every single time he fought someone of that description.

Beter does have fast feet. It is interesting that he takes such steps to cut the ring off, which he does very well, despite having the foot speed to come straight off a fighting line. Toney uses his angles when countering and it is deceptive, Beter is probably underestimated defensively, but I still think Toney would have his moments. Toney was inconsistent and he did rely on his power at times, but that to me is an attribute, not necessarily a failure to counter an opponent. For example the Michael Nun fight.