Beterbiev vs these past heavyweights

[IronDanHamza]

And I asked what fighters ? Thadzi? That's all I see.

Loss's - Thadzi, Tiberi

Draws - Williams

Simple fact is Toney has beaten an overall level of competition. Change my mind.

That's true, I don't disagree with that. Win for win on paper Toney has the better resume.

But the context of those fights does matter, in a H2H match up especially.

Your point can't stand....just as mine does. If you walk straight forward Toney will counter you and will..

Well, firstly, you've just claimed Beterbiev walks straight forward when he absolutely does not.

Secondly, Toney has struggled with fighters multiple times who walk straight forward, lost to some of them and arguably lost to some of them, so that's not really a point either.

Toney excels when someone stands still in the pocket and throws one punch a time, and also when a fighter isn't elite. Neither of those describe Beterbiev.

beter is a wonderful fighter, but he brings nothing new or different beside power. And Toney has proven he can take heavyweight power, let alone lightheavy power.

Why would he have to bring something new to the table to beat Toney? He doesn't. Toney failed to beat journeyman, multiple times in his prime. There are a numerous ways to beat Toney.

Tiberi and Thadzi beat him in his prime with the jab, output by outworking him.

Montel Griffin beat him in his prime twice in similar fashion.

Reggie Johnson made him look like an amateur for long stretches of their fight and was very unlucky to drop a close decision using simple foot movement.

Micheal Nunn was beating him easily for 10 rounds with basic movement.


Merqui Sosa arguably beat him with an awkward jab and letting his hands go and outworking him.

Etc etc.

Power would have no bearing on Beterbiev beating Toney. His jab, footspeed and range control would be the main 3 factors. As well as combinations, right hook to the body which Toney can't avoid to save his life. He'd rack up rounds that way more than likely.

What is definitely, without any doubt, not happening is Toney beating Beterbiev comfortably. There is no evidence what so ever to suggest could happen.

[QueensburyRules]

We are now living in a world where James Toney isn't susceptible to the jab?



You cannot be serious This is heading into bizarro world territory at this point.

You are actually trying to argue that James Toney doesn't have slow, stationary feet and isn't one of his overtly glaring flaws that lead him to look like he'd just learned how to box yesterday by being shown basic movement?



I didn't leave out anyone. I said Toney lost to journeyman fighters in his prime multiple times which is just a fact. Also drew with journeyman in his prime. Again, a fact. Your excuse for that is he was apparently "unmotivated" for those fights despite the fact there is zero evidence for that being any way true.

Out of the fights you listed, the top level on ones that he has wins over; Johnson, McCallum and Nunn, he struggled massively with all 3 of them and arguably lost to two of them, the one he did definitively win, he was way behind on the cards before the KO.
Reason for that being; that's his level. Or what are you saying here, he was "motivated" in those fights? Or was he "unmotivated" and that's why he looked like an amateur for long spells in all all 3 of them? That's usually the tug of war these kind of bizzaro world fans have. I genuinely don't know, neither make sense regardless.

Get's credit for all 3 of those wins, and very good wins they are, despite the fact I had him losing to Johnson and McCallum 2, they were either way fights so full credit. Same for Nunn for pulling the KO despite the fact he was being dominated essentially.

Point still stands, never clearly or comfortably beat a Top level fighter and the chances of it suddenly starting with Beterbiev is as close to nil as possible, I'd imagine. Beterbiev is a stylistic problem for Toney, the argument that he's tailor made for someone like Toney is beyond asinine. But again just the simple fact that he's an elite level fighter alone tells me Toney isn't comfortably beating that man, it never happened a single time in his career so I've no reason to think it would here.

- - Boozo would be proud of jabberwonky who always takes any punch he could avoid...

[Mr Mitts]

Loss's - Thadzi, Tiberi

Draws - Williams



That's true, I don't disagree with that. Win for win on paper Toney has the better resume.

But the context of those fights does matter, in a H2H match up especially.



Well, firstly, you've just claimed Beterbiev walks straight forward when he absolutely does not.

Secondly, Toney has struggled with fighters multiple times who walk straight forward, lost to some of them and arguably lost to some of them, so that's not really a point either.

Toney excels when someone stands still in the pocket and throws one punch a time, and also when a fighter isn't elite. Neither of those describe Beterbiev.





Why would he have to bring something new to the table to beat Toney? He doesn't. Toney failed to beat journeyman, multiple times in his prime. There are a numerous ways to beat Toney.

Tiberi and Thadzi beat him in his prime with the jab, output by outworking him.

Montel Griffin beat him in his prime twice in similar fashion.

Reggie Johnson made him look like an amateur for long stretches of their fight and was very unlucky to drop a close decision using simple foot movement.

Micheal Nunn was beating him easily for 10 rounds with basic movement.


Merqui Sosa arguably beat him with an awkward jab and letting his hands go and outworking him.

Etc etc.

Power would have no bearing on Beterbiev beating Toney. His jab, footspeed and range control would be the main 3 factors. As well as combinations, right hook to the body which Toney can't avoid to save his life. He'd rack up rounds that way more than likely.

What is definitely, without any doubt, not happening is Toney beating Beterbiev comfortably. There is no evidence what so ever to suggest could happen.

Why do comfortable margins matter? Only you are tagging "comfortable," on the end. If you are going to give full credit as you keep reciting the token phrase, then please give it. But what I hear is an Indian-giver who insists that Toney win comfortably, a requirement made for no other fighter to be respected that I know of.

Yes, you make some great points all right and that's a fact. I think Toney garnered a great deal of his reputation later for taking punches from the likes of Peter and having a clever shoulder.

I would swim against the current here and expect a KO or more likely TKO. Reason: Beter's game is predicated on closing the distance. He will instantly get his wish. Both men can punch hard. Beter is not there to box, he is there to do what closing the distance is for. I would expect close quarters all night. Uppercuts. More time elapses between consecutive punches from Toney than Beter--the faster the combo the less recovery time from shock is available.

I think this fight would be as close as you could get to a guarantee of drama. Beter may have to figure out mid range is probably his best option. In that case we would see if he has any ring generalship and can call audibles at the line.

[JAB5239]

Why do comfortable margins matter? Only you are tagging "comfortable," on the end. If you are going to give full credit as you keep reciting the token phrase, then please give it. But what I hear is an Indian-giver who insists that Toney win comfortably, a requirement made for no other fighter to be respected that I know of.

Yes, you make some great points all right and that's a fact. I think Toney garnered a great deal of his reputation later for taking punches from the likes of Peter and having a clever shoulder.

I would swim against the current here and expect a KO or more likely TKO. Reason: Beter's game is predicated on closing the distance. He will instantly get his wish. Both men can punch hard. Beter is not there to box, he is there to do what closing the distance is for. I would expect close quarters all night. Uppercuts. More time elapses between consecutive punches from Toney than Beter--the faster the combo the less recovery time from shock is available.

I think this fight would be as close as you could get to a guarantee of drama. Beter may have to figure out mid range is probably his best option. In that case we would see if he has any ring generalship and can call audibles at the line.

I said comfortably. In my first post about Toney, I believe. I think Dan had taken it wrongly though. When I said this I never meant it would be an easy walkover for Toney, only that he'd be comfortable against Beterbiev's style. He comes pretty much straight ahead. Isn't blinding fast, and doesn't throw non stop punches. Aryur is a very good fighter though and has bone breaking powet.

[IronDanHamza]

Why do comfortable margins matter? Only you are tagging "comfortable," on the end. If you are going to give full credit as you keep reciting the token phrase, then please give it. But what I hear is an Indian-giver who insists that Toney win comfortably, a requirement made for no other fighter to be respected that I know of.

Yes, you make some great points all right and that's a fact. I think Toney garnered a great deal of his reputation later for taking punches from the likes of Peter and having a clever shoulder.

I would swim against the current here and expect a KO or more likely TKO. Reason: Beter's game is predicated on closing the distance. He will instantly get his wish. Both men can punch hard. Beter is not there to box, he is there to do what closing the distance is for. I would expect close quarters all night. Uppercuts. More time elapses between consecutive punches from Toney than Beter--the faster the combo the less recovery time from shock is available.

I think this fight would be as close as you could get to a guarantee of drama. Beter may have to figure out mid range is probably his best option. In that case we would see if he has any ring generalship and can call audibles at the line.

As Jab pointed that, that was in response to this point.

I give Toney full credit for beating Johnson, McCallum and Nunn which are all top tier wins. Despite the fact I had him losing to Johnson and McCallum. But the context of the victories also do matter he struggled badly in all 3. Nothing more than pointing out the facts of the matter.

[them_apples]

- - Guarantee he'd KO ancient Folley.

Also guarantee he KO Ali's first 16 opponents and would dispose of little Sonny Banks post haste without being knocked down like Clay.

heavy bias in my response here - but hear me out anyways

I give a low chance he stops Folley / beats him

he fights like a good amateur and so does Bivol. They fight like sockem boppers and just defend with a guard and take turns. Very little headmovement and very little timing and feints

Folley like all professional fighters of his day, understood the game was fighting not sport, and had a style suited towards the pros where timing is king

I donā€™t doubt that Bivol is very strong in the gym. He has access to good training and is able to do all sorts of strength training. I doubt he is physically weak. HOWEVER. In the boxing ring you donā€™t use those moves. Most of the strength comes from leverage, the lower legs, the hips/lower core and also the STAMINA to stay strong which in part is effected by how heavy you are, not just how fit. If someone can exert themselves later in the fight, they will be stronger

[QueensburyRules]

heavy bias in my response here - but hear me out anyways

I give a low chance he stops Folley / beats him

he fights like a good amateur and so does Bivol. They fight like sockem boppers and just defend with a guard and take turns. Very little headmovement and very little timing and feints

Folley like all professional fighters of his day, understood the game was fighting not sport, and had a style suited towards the pros where timing is king

I donāt doubt that Bivol is very strong in the gym. He has access to good training and is able to do all sorts of strength training. I doubt he is physically weak. HOWEVER. In the boxing ring you donāt use those moves. Most of the strength comes from leverage, the lower legs, the hips/lower core and also the STAMINA to stay strong which in part is effected by how heavy you are, not just how fit. If someone can exert themselves later in the fight, they will be stronger

- - Beter and Bivol are two vastly different styles in an era where Folley likely wouldn't rate not that Eastern Euros have emasculated America's big men. You're stuck in a now crusted buttocks mythical era where Patterson held the heavy title for a long time.

[JAB5239]

- - Beter and Bivol are two vastly different styles in an era where Folley likely wouldn't rate not that Eastern Euros have emasculated America's big men. You're stuck in a now crusted buttocks mythical era where Patterson held the heavy title for a long time.

Lmao....why wouldn't Folley rate, because up the incredible skill set today's division exhibits as a whole? GTFOH!!

[QueensburyRules]

Lmao....why wouldn't Folley rate, because up the incredible skill set today's division exhibits as a whole? GTFOH!!

- - What U know about skill could be flaking off U crusted Butte

[JAB5239]

- - What U know about skill could be flaking off U crusted Butte

If I knew only knew an irreducible fraction about skill compared to what you know about drinking on a daily basis I'd still be an expert on the topic, you old drunk!!