Beterbiev vs these past heavyweights

[billeau2]

Stylistically? I'm struggling to see even a single comparison.

Resume wise it's not worth entertaining. Jirov's resume is a joke and surely no one is going to argue against that.

I definitely see your point about the resume. I would say that Jirov is hardly alone in that department. Seldom these days especially can we evaluate a talent purely on resume. Bivol happens to be very successful in having been able to fight two great fighters, along with the rest of his comp which is solid.

[billeau2]

That's a lot of shine for a fighter with only 21 fights. How on Earth can anyone gauge how good a fighter is when he's literally a 39-year-old prospect?

Biledriver

This point comes into play when we compare Toney to Beter... Toney fought in many divisions, including heavyweight and was competative and successful. Also, Beter's power would be somewhat nullified by Toney's chin, and I believe, as Jab does, that Toney's angles would be at least a marginal problem for Beter.

[billeau2]

- - TwoTon was a twotonpunching bag for fighters. His primary skill was getting hit and surviving as demonstrated in his last 10 years stumbling around punch drunk.

Boozo would've luvved U though as a fellow punchdrunk.

Some of this post sounds autobiographical! See bolded.

[billeau2]

This is better. This is a good back and forth.

Don't disagree Toney has the better resume. But it's arguable. I'd lean on Toney there with the quality wins he has slightly outweighs Beterbeiv's.




Laughable though, isn't it?



Never said he was trash. Said he was a hype job, which he was. In the sense that he came in off winning a gold medal and had a nothing career.





No where did I say they do.

What I'm saying is Toney get's hit a lot. He just does. He isn't some defensive wizard like a lot of people claim. He has a nice shoulder roll, flat and slow feet to the point he get's hit consistently every single time he fought any one of real note. That's just a fact of the matter. Beterbiev is going to hit him and hit him often. I'm sure Toney hits Betbiev often too. I wouldn't expect a one sided fight either way but I don't see anything in Toney's career to suggest he could beat Beterbiev in any way comfortably. He never showed that at any point.




I don't understand how you could make that assesment when he had one fight there to which he won a competitive decison against a fighter he never proved to be anywhere elite. That doesn't make any sense.




So how exactly do you differentiate between "unmotivated" and "motivated" Toney?

There is no difference. It's an excuse and nothing more.



It is totally unfathomable to me that you can watch someone's career with your own two eyes and form this insane opinion.

How could you possibly argue that Beterbiev is tailor made for Toney? The simple fact Beterbiev has a top quality jab alone debunks that because we know from countless amounts of footage that it's not difficult to hit Toney with a jab.

We also know that he he struggles with footwork/footspeed/in and out movement which Beterbiev brings to the table very well.

He's anything but tailor made for Toney, he has multilple tools and facets to his game that have shown to be extremely difficult for a Toney to handle.

Someone tailor made for Toney is someone who #1 isn't elite, and #2 is going to throw one punch at a time. Beterbiev is neither of those.




Am I in the twilight zone?

Beterbiev is elite, obviously.

He's the undisputed LHW champion of the world and one of the Top 5 P4P fighters in the entire sport. That is as elite as a fighter can possibly get.

To even compare him to the likes of Jirov is baffling.

Toney doesn't have a single clear/comfortable/dominant(whatever you want to call it) win over a Top level opponent, let alone an elite one.

Beterbeiv definitely has not shown a blue print weakness based on any style. Like a lot of talented fighters he has concentrated on reigning in one weight class... Good for him, I support that strategy. We would have better boxing if fighters did not chase titles, and kept their divisions in tact.

I would also say Beter did something the other Eastern Euro, Russian and Cuban fighters often do... They modify what is a basic style and make it their own.

here is the one major problem I see for Beter: Toney has demonstrated he can deal with power. This may not nullify Beter but it does give Toney advantages. I understand we do not see eye to eye on the ability of Toney to use angles, there is a legitimate argument that Beter's feet and jab could offset that advantage... But one would have to know how Beter responds to getting hit by a strong puncher whom fought heavyweight, and how he would deal with a fighter who could probably take his shots (we do not know if Toney could take his shots, I am assuming he could). Thoughts?

[IronDanHamza]

It's easy to see unmotivated and motivated Toney, just as it was with Ali. Not that I'm putting To ey on that level, because he is not. He had the skills and potential to be an ATG. but he fell short of that because of a lack of discipline.

So if it's so easy what is it then?

Can you name me the differences and which fights they are between the "unmotivated" and "motivated" versions?

I think you're being very harsh by saying Toney got hit a lot. All fighters get hit. Toney's game was to let fighters throw at him make them miss and counter, and he was very good at it.

Don't think it's harsh, think it's just reality. He does get hit a lot. He's not a difficult fighter to hit and he showed that countless times in his career.

Jitov certainly doesn't have a strong resume, but he was the number one Cruiserweight for 3 years. His career may not have skyrocketed, but i think that has more to do with the state of the division at that time and not his skills etc.

Not having a strong resume is the understatement of the century. His resume is a joke. There is barely a word in the English language to describe how poor it is. In what was probably the worst Crusierweight era in history he beat one fighter ranked in the Top 5. There's no more to be said on it.

And a fighter having one fight at that weight, against said fighter, and winning a competitive close decision against them does not prove that that is somehow his best weight. Toney was the exact same fighter at every single weight class he fought at.

Beterbiev is elite. And he is a p4p fighter as of just recently if im not mistaken. But in my opinion Toney is the worst style matchup he could have. I cant say hed win with any surety, its a fantasy fight. But looking at it stylistically it plays into James hands.

I mean, again I'll just echo what I just said on this;

It is totally unfathomable to me that you can watch someone's career with your own two eyes and form this insane opinion.

It's mind blowing to me that you can watch these two fighters and form the opinion that Beterbiev is tailor made for Toney. It's almost like an alternate reality vibe going on.

We know, categorically that Toney is susceptible to the jab, we know that. We know that Beterbiev has an exceptional jab. That alone is going to cause Toney massive problems.

We know, categorically, that Toney has stationary, slow feet and struggles mightily with fighters who has quick in and out movement which is one of Beterbiev's strengths, as well as range control, there is no planet where Beterbiev is tailor made for Toney. It's just a totally insane take to have.

Outside of fantasy land, which is actually the only place where James Toney actually does these things you describe. Where he comfortably beats elite fighters with top tier jabs and movement and skills.

Whereas in actual reality, he loses mutliple times easily to journeyman in his prime and fails to comfortably beat any top fighters at all, much less elite ones like the likes of Beterbiev.

[IronDanHamza]

Beterbeiv definitely has not shown a blue print weakness based on any style. Like a lot of talented fighters he has concentrated on reigning in one weight class... Good for him, I support that strategy. We would have better boxing if fighters did not chase titles, and kept their divisions in tact.

I would also say Beter did something the other Eastern Euro, Russian and Cuban fighters often do... They modify what is a basic style and make it their own.

here is the one major problem I see for Beter: Toney has demonstrated he can deal with power. This may not nullify Beter but it does give Toney advantages. I understand we do not see eye to eye on the ability of Toney to use angles, there is a legitimate argument that Beter's feet and jab could offset that advantage... But one would have to know how Beter responds to getting hit by a strong puncher whom fought heavyweight, and how he would deal with a fighter who could probably take his shots (we do not know if Toney could take his shots, I am assuming he could). Thoughts?

I can agree there.

The one thing Toney does have to his game that is elite is his chin. Beterbiev isn't stopping him. Might hurt him, but won't stop him.

I don't think he'd need to though to be honest. I'd expect Beterbiev to win most of the rounds from a stylistic standpoint

[billeau2]

I can agree there.

The one thing Toney does have to his game that is elite is his chin. Beterbiev isn't stopping him. Might hurt him, but won't stop him.

I don't think he'd need to though to be honest. I'd expect Beterbiev to win most of the rounds from a stylistic standpoint

Very possible.

[JAB5239]

So if it's so easy what is it then?

Can you name me the differences and which fights they are between the "unmotivated" and "motivated" versions?



Don't think it's harsh, think it's just reality. He does get hit a lot. He's not a difficult fighter to hit and he showed that countless times in his career.





Not having a strong resume is the understatement of the century. His resume is a joke. There is barely a word in the English language to describe how poor it is. In what was probably the worst Crusierweight era in history he beat one fighter ranked in the Top 5. There's no more to be said on it.

And a fighter having one fight at that weight, against said fighter, and winning a competitive close decision against them does not prove that that is somehow his best weight. Toney was the exact same fighter at every single weight class he fought at.



I mean, again I'll just echo what I just said on this;

It is totally unfathomable to me that you can watch someone's career with your own two eyes and form this insane opinion.

It's mind blowing to me that you can watch these two fighters and form the opinion that Beterbiev is tailor made for Toney. It's almost like an alternate reality vibe going on.

We know, categorically that Toney is susceptible to the jab, we know that. We know that Beterbiev has an exceptional jab. That alone is going to cause Toney massive problems.

We know, categorically, that Toney has stationary, slow feet and struggles mightily with fighters who has quick in and out movement which is one of Beterbiev's strengths, as well as range control, there is no planet where Beterbiev is tailor made for Toney. It's just a totally insane take to have.

Outside of fantasy land, which is actually the only place where James Toney actually does these things you describe. Where he comfortably beats elite fighters with top tier jabs and movement and skills.

Whereas in actual reality, he loses mutliple times easily to journeyman in his prime and fails to comfortably beat any top fighters at all, much less elite ones like the likes of Beterbiev.

How exactly do we know Toney is categorically susceptible to the jab? EVERY fighter gets hit with the jab more than any other punch.

You say he has slow feet. I say he drawing opponents to him the way Joe Louid and Alexis Arguello did.

Lost to journeyman multiple times in his prime? OK, sure. who? Thadzi? You seem to leave out the fighters he d I d beat. McCallum several times, Littles, Dewitt, Barkley, Johnson, Nunn. A top fighters with Nunn being the number 3 p4p fighter when Toney beat him, and McCallum seen by the IBRO as the second great junior middle of all time.

See many other people see these great attributes of Toney, it baffles me how you do not.

Let's see where Beterbiev's opponents land at the end of their respective careers and we can revisit this. As it is, I stand by my opinion.

[IronDanHamza]

How exactly do we know Toney is categorically susceptible to the jab? EVERY fighter gets hit with the jab more than any other punch.

We are now living in a world where James Toney isn't susceptible to the jab?

You say he has slow feet. I say he drawing opponents to him the way Joe Louid and Alexis Arguello did.

You cannot be serious This is heading into bizarro world territory at this point.

You are actually trying to argue that James Toney doesn't have slow, stationary feet and isn't one of his overtly glaring flaws that lead him to look like he'd just learned how to box yesterday by being shown basic movement?

Lost to journeyman multiple times in his prime? OK, sure. who? Thadzi? You seem to leave out the fighters he d I d beat. McCallum several times, Littles, Dewitt, Barkley, Johnson, Nunn. A top fighters with Nunn being the number 3 p4p fighter when Toney beat him, and McCallum seen by the IBRO as the second great junior middle of all time.

I didn't leave out anyone. I said Toney lost to journeyman fighters in his prime multiple times which is just a fact. Also drew with journeyman in his prime. Again, a fact. Your excuse for that is he was apparently "unmotivated" for those fights despite the fact there is zero evidence for that being any way true.

Out of the fights you listed, the top level on ones that he has wins over; Johnson, McCallum and Nunn, he struggled massively with all 3 of them and arguably lost to two of them, the one he did definitively win, he was way behind on the cards before the KO.

Reason for that being; that's his level. Or what are you saying here, he was "motivated" in those fights? Or was he "unmotivated" and that's why he looked like an amateur for long spells in all all 3 of them? That's usually the tug of war these kind of bizzaro world fans have. I genuinely don't know, neither make sense regardless.

Get's credit for all 3 of those wins, and very good wins they are, despite the fact I had him losing to Johnson and McCallum 2, they were either way fights so full credit. Same for Nunn for pulling the KO despite the fact he was being dominated essentially.

Point still stands, never clearly or comfortably beat a Top level fighter and the chances of it suddenly starting with Beterbiev is as close to nil as possible, I'd imagine. Beterbiev is a stylistic problem for Toney, the argument that he's tailor made for someone like Toney is beyond asinine. But again just the simple fact that he's an elite level fighter alone tells me Toney isn't comfortably beating that man, it never happened a single time in his career so I've no reason to think it would here.

[JAB5239]

We are now living in a world where James Toney isn't susceptible to the jab?



You cannot be serious This is heading into bizarro world territory at this point.

You are actually trying to argue that James Toney doesn't have slow, stationary feet and isn't one of his overtly glaring flaws that lead him to look like he'd just learned how to box yesterday by being shown basic movement?



I didn't leave out anyone. I said Toney lost to journeyman fighters in his prime multiple times which is just a fact. Also drew with journeyman in his prime. Again, a fact. Your excuse for that is he was apparently "unmotivated" for those fights despite the fact there is zero evidence for that being any way true.

Out of the fights you listed, the top level on ones that he has wins over; Johnson, McCallum and Nunn, he struggled massively with all 3 of them and arguably lost to two of them, the one he did definitively win, he was way behind on the cards before the KO.

Reason for that being; that's his level. Or what are you saying here, he was "motivated" in those fights? Or was he "unmotivated" and that's why he looked like an amateur for long spells in all all 3 of them? That's usually the tug of war these kind of bizzaro world fans have. I genuinely don't know, neither make sense regardless.

Get's credit for all 3 of those wins, and very good wins they are, despite the fact I had him losing to Johnson and McCallum 2, they were either way fights so full credit. Same for Nunn for pulling the KO despite the fact he was being dominated essentially.

Point still stands, never clearly or comfortably beat a Top level fighter and the chances of it suddenly starting with Beterbiev is as close to nil as possible, I'd imagine. Beterbiev is a stylistic problem for Toney, the argument that he's tailor made for someone like Toney is beyond asinine. But again just the simple fact that he's an elite level fighter alone tells me Toney isn't comfortably beating that man, it never happened a single time in his career so I've no reason to think it would here.

And I asked what fighters ? Thadzi? That's all I see.

Simple fact is Toney has beaten an overall level of competition. Change my mind.

Your point can't stand....just as mine does. If you walk straight forward Toney will counter you and will.. beter is a wonderful fighter, but he brings nothing new or different beside power. And Toney has proven he can take heavyweight power, let alone lightheavy power.