How do you view the matches between Langford and Wills?

[Dr. Z]

I don't know if we can say much about his fighting from what's out there. There isn't much from those fights and he was 35 years old when he fought Madden and Firpo.

He did have a fight scheduled against Johnson but the commission in NJ wouldn't allow it since Johnson was well past it by then.

I don't believe he ducked Godfrey. By that time he was pretty much busy being jerked around by Dempsey.

You don't belive Wills ducked Godfrey? WOW, he was an option to fight him and his manger tried to make the fight several times. Stop balming the NY/NJ commission for the fights Johnson draged his feet on waiting for them to act. It is not like he signed a contact before they acted.

Yes Dempsey avoided Wills and could have made the fight in other USA states. Just like Johsnon avoided Langford and Jeannette, and Wills avoided Godfrey. Why you refuse to say African Americans avoided fights too back then? I want to know this. Jonhson drew the color line against his own people Jeannette says. Its in the papers and can be shown here.

[travestyny]

But he did help make Wills some nice money.

The 124K for Firpo was twice what Babe Ruth made for the 1924 season, 60K.

Wills in the end did OK, total life wise. The others not so good.

Well yea, but I'm assuming he would have made more with a title shot....and could have really made a killing if he lifted the title. Plus as a competitor, he deserved his shot and Rickard got in the way, so I can't praise him much if at all.

[travestyny]

You don't belive Wills ducked Godfrey? WOW, he was an option to fight him and his manger tried to make the fight several times. Stop balming the NY/NJ commission for the fights Johnson draged his feet on waiting for them to act. It is not like he signed a contact before they acted.

Dude, we already explored the Wills/Godfrey thing here. Godfrey's manager had been complaining that they couldn't get good offers by promoters for Godfrey vs. Wills because they were both Black. He said he could only get $5000 or something to that effect. That was 1923. in '24, Wills was busy fighting guys set up by Rickard because Rickard promised if he got past them, Dempsey would be next.

Now you want to blame Jack Johnson for the NJ commission not allowing him to fight Wills??? We know he already signed the contract for Jeannette so if that's what you meant by lumping NY into it, it was already done. As for vs. Wills, there is no way you can blame Jack Johnson for the work of a commission. This was after his prison stint, was to be one of his final matches, and the NJ commission said no after Wills and Johnson both agreed. No way anyone can blame Johnson for that.

Yes Dempsey avoided Wills and could have made the fight in other USA states. Just like Johsnon avoided Langford and Jeannette, and Wills avoided Godfrey. Why you refuse to say African Americans avoided fights too back then? I want to know this. Jonhson drew the color line against his own people Jeannette says. Its in the papers and can be shown here.

No, I don't know how race has anything to do with it. Johnson agreed to fight all of those guys. I've already explained what happened with Wills. Yes, Dempsey ducked. That's what happened.

If you prove Black fighters avoided someone, then show the evidence and I will gladly agree. But it's pretty rich that you try to say Johnson and Wills avoided this one and that one when there is evidence that they did not, while you refuse to believe Jeffries avoided Johnson and McVea.

[Ivich]

- - Louis beats both, but both capable of an upset.

Sam vs Harry started off legit as Harry the young gun held the advantage over near blind Sam, but then Sam knocked him cold.

They kept fighting because the public couldn't get enough of them as the last of the old guard, but likely the fights were staged where the punches were real, but not hurtful knowing Harry was gonna win anyway.

What, over 20x? It's a great story because they played a system stacked against them and came out much more respected than Jack Johnson.

Wills and Langford began their series in1914.
Langford sustained the injury to his optic nerve in a fight with Fred Fulton in 1917,by which time Sam and Harry had already fought 8 times.

[Ivich]

How do you know that Langford was fast and could get inside?

There is; as far as I know, one film of him fighting, I believe McVea. What you can see is that both men are very strong. But most, if not all of the fight was the two men lunging at each other with pretty primitive styles.

If he could not get inside how did he,all 5 feet seven of him, win so many fights against much larger opponents?

[Ivich]

By 1923 and after, two things had changed. Wills was a contender and was only taking top paying fights.

Assuming he was going to get a shot at Dempsey he had to be judicious in choosing his opponents. Each needed to be a climb up the ladder. His barn storming days had to be over. They could soured the situation.

1922 was his last busy year. After that he needed to present himself as a big money fighter only.

The second, I think Tex Rickard felt some quilt over squeezing Wills out of a title shot and would promote Wills' two biggest paydays, Firpo and Sharkey.

I believe the numbers were around 124K for Firpo and 90K for Sharkey. But you would probably know better.

So it was better for Wills to fight sparingly, only in big fights.

Wills changed who he was after 1922, but I don't think it was as much about age as it was about positioning.

This in incorrect, In1922 Wills was severely criticized for taking soft touches in a leading article headed,"The Trouble With Harry".
In1923
Wills took on 3 low profile journeymen.
Jack Thompson20-22-6
Homer Smith 42- 24- 7
Floyd Johnson 39-11-11

[Ivich]

- - Louis beats both, but both capable of an upset.

Sam vs Harry started off legit as Harry the young gun held the advantage over near blind Sam, but then Sam knocked him cold.

They kept fighting because the public couldn't get enough of them as the last of the old guard, but likely the fights were staged where the punches were real, but not hurtful knowing Harry was gonna win anyway.

What, over 20x? It's a great story because they played a system stacked against them and came out much more respected than Jack Johnson.

Langford is quoted as saying that after agreeing to take it easy in a fight with Jeannette,[May12th 1916 ,]he accidently ko'd him.

[Willie Pep 229]

This in incorrect, In1922 Wills was severely criticized for taking soft touches in a leading article headed,"The Trouble With Harry".
In1923
Wills took on 3 low profile journeymen.
Jack Thompson20-22-6
Homer Smith 42- 24- 7
Floyd Johnson 39-11-11

No you are incorrect. That's called barn storming that's what had to stop after 1922. You made my point and told me I'm wrong.

[Willie Pep 229]

If he could not get inside how did he,all 5 feet seven of him, win so many fights against much larger opponents?

I did not say he couldn't get inside I said how can you know without seeing - that's quite the leap of logic you are making. Once again you are arguing that outcome proves cause.

[Dr. Z]

I don't know if we can say much about his fighting from what's out there. There isn't much from those fights and he was 35 years old when he fought Madden and Firpo.

He did have a fight scheduled against Johnson but the commission in NJ wouldn't allow it since Johnson was well past it by then.

I don't believe he ducked Godfrey. By that time he was pretty much busy being jerked around by Dempsey.

Yes Willis did duck Godfrey. Seveal times.

Wills did turn down $250K to fight Tunney, a 1943 interview with Godfrey alleges Rickard made the $150K offer to Wills for a fight at Madison Square Garden. Godfrey's manager, Doughrety claims Wills turned down a $75K offer from a promoter in Philadelphia

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