How do you view the matches between Langford and Wills?

[billeau2]

How do you know that Langford was fast and could get inside?

There is; as far as I know, one film of him fighting, I believe McVea. What you can see is that both men are very strong. But most, if not all of the fight was the two men lunging at each other with pretty primitive styles.

Some of that is due to the primitive filming techniques at the time. I had similar thoughts when I saw the film, and even a few fights mentioned to you by other members that are on film. Sometimes picking up a Sartre book like Camus, one sees a deep, introspective, philosophically complex probing into the burden of the human condition... other times one sees the confused musings of an amphetamine taking, nicotine & coffee scarfing morose French man with a chip on his shoulder. When we look at these films I sometimes feel like the same dichotomy, extreme polarity is operating in similar fashion.

But there are aspects to the game here that seem to make some sense, when pulled out of the chaos. For one thing, primitive does not equal lesser than, vis a vis, less effective. The pressure guy forever is forsaken in his quest to keep coming, even when his skill in taking the punch of an opponent properly, setting up to keep his opponent on his back leg, and his intuition telling him when to pour in on, operate at the height of efficiency.

The two most consistent men cited as the absolute best fighters were, in order, Robinson and Armstrong. Things have changed and Hank does not always trail, or equal Robinson these days... But again when we look at the dichotomy between Apollo, the ordered tools of the assasin, whether they be the bullfighter who cruelly uses specific weapons on the Bull (do not agree with it) or the fighter, Robinson is the man, while Dionasyn, wine soaked craziness, the pure fight, savage and unrelenting, Armstrong is the archetype. Sam squarely falls into this second category, no doubt. Can we dissect his fights like we can with armstrong? I think given the film issues it is tough but possible.

Try this: it has been remastered. Im looking at it now lol.

[travestyny]

The problem also is that we have very little film of Wills, and no film of him in his prime.

I remember I had to email boxrec to get them to correct his age based on his headstone. He was older than most of us who went by boxrec thought.

[travestyny]

I also remembered it as Langford having the advantage early and Wills late, but now reviewing it.....Langford only beat Wills twice. Both early on, but Wills fought him to a draw in the first fight, got KOed after knocking Langford down 4 times in the first two rounds of the second fight (KO 14/20), easily won the third fight, won the 4th fight as well, both by decision, and lost by KO in the fifth fight that was fought evenly until he got caught in round 19 out of 20. Then he won all of the other matches they had against each other.


That's pretty impressive, for both Wills and Langford.
Langford was probably past his prime in all of the fights, but how far past his prime was he in 1914? I think it's really impressive for 24 year old Wills with 16 fights to fight 31 year old 130 fight Langford to a draw in their first match. Wills didn't hit his prime by then so that's something to think about.

[GhostofDempsey]

Langford was a middleweight fighting a large HW and still managed a couple of wins in their early contests before Langford was completely shot. Wills style was to wrestle, clinch and lean on smaller opponents to wear them down and not give them a chance to fight. He was even bigger than Louis. But Louis would beat Wills easily, and Langford would give Louis all he could handle. If Louis and Langford enter the ring at their respective best it’s a close fight but I give Louis the edge.

[Ivich]

Langford was a middleweight fighting a large HW and still managed a couple of wins in their early contests before Langford was completely shot. Wills style was to wrestle, clinch and lean on smaller opponents to wear them down and not give them a chance to fight. He was even bigger than Louis. But Louis would beat Wills easily, and Langford would give Louis all he could handle. If Louis and Langford enter the ring at their respective best it’s a close fight but I give Louis the edge.

From their first bout ,in1914 until their last in1922 , Langford was never within 25 lbs of the middleweight limit. I agree with the rest of your post.

[Dr. Z]

The problem also is that we have very little film of Wills, and no film of him in his prime.

I remember I had to email boxrec to get them to correct his age based on his headstone. He was older than most of us who went by boxrec thought.

Wills can be seen vs Fripo and Madden, not at his best for these fights but not in the obvious decline either. You can get a good feel for his style and ability in this films. I think he lacks skills and isn't fast. Maybe he was a little quicker years ago but speed was not his his thing in his prime.


He was avoived by Dempsey and never fought Johnson for some reason. But he fought Langford 22 times and foguht good competition overallll including the colored heavyweight champion matches! However he ducked Godfrey. Too bad that would have been one heck of a match.

[travestyny]

Wills can be seen vs Fripo and Madden, not at his best for these fights but not in the obvious decline either. You can get a good feel for his style and ability in this films. I think he lacks skills and isn't fast. Maybe he was a little quicker years ago but speed was not his his thing in his prime.


He was avoived by Dempsey and never fought Johnson for some reason. But he fought Langford 22 times and foguht good competition overallll including the colored heavyweight champion matches! However he ducked Godfrey. Too bad that would have been one heck of a match.

I don't know if we can say much about his fighting from what's out there. There isn't much from those fights and he was 35 years old when he fought Madden and Firpo.

He did have a fight scheduled against Johnson but the commission in NJ wouldn't allow it since Johnson was well past it by then.

I don't believe he ducked Godfrey. By that time he was pretty much busy being jerked around by Dempsey.

[Willie Pep 229]

I don't know if we can say much about his fighting from what's out there. There isn't much from those fights and he was 35 years old when he fought Madden and Firpo.

He did have a fight scheduled against Johnson but the commission in NJ wouldn't allow it since Johnson was well past it by then.

I don't believe he ducked Godfrey. By that time he was pretty much busy being jerked around by Dempsey.

By 1923 and after, two things had changed. Wills was a contender and was only taking top paying fights.

Assuming he was going to get a shot at Dempsey he had to be judicious in choosing his opponents. Each needed to be a climb up the ladder. His barn storming days had to be over. They could soured the situation.

1922 was his last busy year. After that he needed to present himself as a big money fighter only.

The second, I think Tex Rickard felt some quilt over squeezing Wills out of a title shot and would promote Wills' two biggest paydays, Firpo and Sharkey.

I believe the numbers were around 124K for Firpo and 90K for Sharkey. But you would probably know better.

So it was better for Wills to fight sparingly, only in big fights.

Wills changed who he was after 1922, but I don't think it was as much about age as it was about positioning.

[travestyny]

By 1923 and after, two things had changed. Wills was a contender and was only taking top paying fights.

Assuming he was going to get a shot at Dempsey he had to be judicious in choosing his opponents. Each needed to be a climb up the ladder. His barn storming days had to be over. They could soured the situation.

1922 was his last busy year. After that he needed to present himself as a big money fighter only.

The second, I think Tex Rickard felt some quilt over squeezing Wills out of a title shot and would promote Wills' two biggest paydays, Firpo and Sharkey.

I believe the numbers were around 124K for Firpo and 90K for Sharkey. But you would probably know better.

So it was better for Wills to fight sparingly, only in big fights.

Wills changed who he was after 1922, but I don't think it was as much about age as it was about positioning.

If I remember correctly, Rickard was throwing some fights at Wills claiming that if he gets past them, Dempsey would be next. So he was taking the fights to secure Dempsey, and of course, Rickard had no plans on getting him Dempsey at all.

[Willie Pep 229]

If I remember correctly, Rickard was throwing some fights at Wills claiming that if he gets past them, Dempsey would be next. So he was taking the fights to secure Dempsey, and of course, Rickard had no plans on getting him Dempsey at all.

But he did help make Wills some nice money.

The 124K for Firpo was twice what Babe Ruth made for the 1924 season, 60K.

Wills in the end did OK, total life wise. The others not so good.