james toney had a better carrer then roy

[sterling]

I agree with the thread starter and i almost didn't come into this thread because i knew people would automatically say that Roy's career and resume was better, which it wasn't at all. Toney's record and resume is alot better than Roys.

There is a big difference between the opposition that Toney fought and the opposition that Jones fought. Roy pick and choose his opponents that he knew he could beat and that was not a real threat to him. Think about it, who did Roy fight that was a real threat to his titles? A green Bernard Hopkins that didn't have his ora down yet? An out of shape Toney in which Jones continuously changed the date of the fight so Toney could be out of shape?

Toney fought all comers and didn't duck any fighter, Do you really think that Roy would fight Vasili Jirov? 31-0 brutal body puncher and cruierweight champion? Do you really think that Roy would fight Evander Holyfield even at that stage in his career? Sam Peter? Iran Barkley? undefeated Tim Littles? Washington? Roy ducked old Buster Douglas so please. These fighters are all threats to Toney. Roy has never fought fighters of these caliber.

Roy had all of the tools and had the physical gifts to become the best middle or super middle of all time. But he was no where near as tough as Toney and did not like to fight undefeated up and comers or real threats to him. Instead of fighting top opponents, he fought weak opposition like Glen Kelly, Pazienza, Valle ect. All opponents that he know he could beat and not real threats.

finally someone that isnt a roy nut hugger i mean someone that finally tells it like it is gd post but im no nut hugger i like them both but its easy to see james did more but is underrated if compared to roy.

[sterling]

I agree that Roy Jones didn't beat the real James Toney and there should've been a rematch (possibly in 2003 when Jones was the HW champ and Toney was the CW champ) but James Toney spent almost 10 years fighting nothing but bums, journeymen and a few contenders and actually lost to some of them (Griffin, Thadzi).

Toney also won disputed decisions over Merqui Sosa (split), Reggie Johnson (split, Toney was dropped), Mike McCallum (draw, majority) and Dave Tiberi (split).

Even in his greatest victory over Michael Nunn, he was badly behind on points before unleashing a hell of a left hook that dropped Nunn.

When you compare the way Toney and Roy Jones beat their common opponents, you will find that Roy Jones completely dominated them, Toney struggled with many.

Roy Jones was also a terrible styles match-up for James Toney who didn't like to move much, Jones was an elusive target for Toney.
Toney was at his absolute best against come-forward fighters like Iran Barkley because of his polished inside game, his body movements, his countering ability and the great chin he had.

Roy Jones just pot-shotted him all night and racked up points.

Toney simply lacked stamina that night and he did on many other nights when he struggled with mediocre opposition.
That is why he cannot be considered BETTER than Roy Jones who came in shape to every fight of his, every single night. Toney was simply too inconsistent.

I could easily make Toney look bad by being negative about his career like you people seem to be about Roy's but you have to be unbiased when discussing one's resume.
Roy had many good wins, most are already posted on the first few pages of this thread.

yeh roy got knocked out by tarver and glenn while toney has never been knocked out.
he was slipping alot of dam punches there already a thread about this stating that toney was never gettin hit much anyway nunn was ahead because of his work rate.

[slicksouthpaw16]

I agree that Roy Jones didn't beat the real James Toney and there should've been a rematch (possibly in 2003 when Jones was the HW champ and Toney was the CW champ) but James Toney spent almost 10 years fighting nothing but bums, journeymen and a few contenders and actually lost to some of them (Griffin, Thadzi).

Toney also won disputed decisions over Merqui Sosa (split), Reggie Johnson (split, Toney was dropped), Mike McCallum (draw, majority) and Dave Tiberi (split).

Even in his greatest victory over Michael Nunn, he was badly behind on points before unleashing a hell of a left hook that dropped Nunn.

When you compare the way Toney and Roy Jones beat their common opponents, you will find that Roy Jones completely dominated them, Toney struggled with many.

Roy Jones was also a terrible styles match-up for James Toney who didn't like to move much, Jones was an elusive target for Toney.
Toney was at his absolute best against come-forward fighters like Iran Barkley because of his polished inside game, his body movements, his countering ability and the great chin he had.

Roy Jones just pot-shotted him all night and racked up points.

Toney simply lacked stamina that night and he did on many other nights when he struggled with mediocre opposition.
That is why he cannot be considered BETTER than Roy Jones who came in shape to every fight of his, every single night. Toney was simply too inconsistent.

I could easily make Toney look bad by being negative about his career like you people seem to be about Roy's but you have to be unbiased when discussing one's resume.
Roy had many good wins, most are already posted on the first few pages of this thread.

The point is that Toney fought and beat the better line of people and has never ducked an opponent, while Roy had avoided many up and comers and didn't fight the best, which makes Toney's better. Toney captured a belt in every single division from middleweight up. The fact that Toney looked bad against some of these opponents only means that he didn't come in prepared. Sorry but im trying to be unbiased here, but its hard to do that when you have a superstar fighter that ducked opponents, and say that he has a better career an resume than an underrated fighter that has never ducked one opponent.

Also Toney showed what he could have done if he had come in shape. Many people say that he s too stationary for Jones style, which i don't believe. Toney was able to catch Roy with short right hands at will as he came in. He also had the perfect game plan. Every time Roy would go near the ropes, Toney would jab to the body and let his hands go.

People always seem to think that he Toney was badly behind points in the Nunn fight, which he was not. Nunn was starting to slow down in the later rouns an Toney started to come on anyway. Nunn was ahead but even the judges said that the fight was getting close.

[-Antonio-]

sterling has to be the biggest nuthuggers i have ever seen followed by Wlad owns.

Jones top 10 victories: (no specific order)

James Toney
Bernard Hopkins
Virgil Hill
John Ruiz
Antonio Tarver
Clinton Woods
Felix Trinidad
Julio Cesar Gonzalez
Mike McCallum
Montell Griffin

Toney's Top 10 Victories:

Michael Nunn
Mike McCallum
Reggie Johnson
Iran Barkley
Vassiliy Jirov
Dominick Guinn
Evander Holyfield
Dave Tiberi
Tim Littles
Rydell Booker

Jones was the better fighter, had the better career/accomplishments. End of thread.

If Hopkins beats Calzaghe then you can make an arguement for him having a better career, but not Toney unless you have him in your sig or avatar

You forgot Prince Charles Williams and Sosa

[-Antonio-]

There is some horrible debating going on in here (not everybody). But the type of bull**** people say to defend an opinion is laughable.

[TheGreatA]

Just because Toney is underrated and Roy is overrated doesn't mean Toney is better than Roy.
Roy has consistently beaten better opposition and beaten their comparable opposition much more impressively than Toney did.

Roy's best wins:
Young Bernard Hopkins
James Toney (p4p #2 at the time)
Thulani Malinga (beat Benn/Reid)
Eric Lucas (went on to become SMW champion)
Old Mike McCallum past his best weight
Montell Griffin (coming off two wins over Toney and a DQ win over Jones)
Virgil Hill (former undisputed LHW champion)
Otis Grant (WBO MW champion)
Reggie Johnson (IBF LHW champion at the time)
Lou Del Valle (two time WBA LHW champion, won vacant titles though)
Eric Harding (first man to beat Tarver)
Julio Cesar Gonzales (went on to beat Dariusz Michelczewski)
Clinton Woods (IBF champion today)
John Ruiz
Antonio Tarver

Toney's best wins:
Michael Nunn (undefeated Mw champ)
Reggie Johnson
Mike McCallum (past prime but capable)
Iran Barkley (3-division champ)
Tim Littles (undefeated at the time but career pretty much ended by Toney)
Charles Williams
Vassiliy Jirov (undefeated CW champ)
Old Evander Holyfield
John Ruiz (no contest due to steroid use)
Dominick Guinn (decent HW contender at the time)
draw with Rahman
close fight with Peter

Now lets look how they did against comparable opposition:

Merqui Sosa: Jones TKO2, Toney SD
Reggie Johnson: Jones shutout UD, Toney SD (dropped once)
Glenn Wolfe: Jones TKO1, Toney UD
Tony Thornton: Jones TKO3, Toney UD
Montell Griffin: Jones loss by DQ, Jones win KO1, Toney loss MD, loss UD
40 year old McCallum: Jones wins by shutout UD, Toney wins by close but clear UD
John Ruiz: both win by clear margins, Toney caught from steroids



Toney has fought great opposition in his early career and in his late career but who did he fight from '94 to '03? No one. He wasted YEARS off his career fighting journeymen.

Also Toney won world titles at MW, SMW, CW but never at LHW or HW (because of steroids).

Nunn vs Toney
The scorecards at the time of the stoppage:
Gary Merritt 93-97 judge: Bob Watson 91-99 judge: Dalby Shirley 92-98

Toney had no other chance of winning that fight with Nunn other than a knockout.

I spent lots of time making this post so you better read it.

[oldgringo]

Just because Toney is underrated and Roy is overrated doesn't mean Toney is better than Roy.
Roy has beaten better opposition and beaten their comparable opposition much more impressively than Toney did.

I agree with your first statement. However, outside of Jones beating Toney, James has beaten better fighters in my opinion. You are correct about the comparable opponents as well, although James fought most of those common opponents well before Roy fought them. That may be trivial, but I just thought I'd point it out. Jirov and Nunn were better wins than your two best Roy wins outside of Toney.

Toney has fought great opposition in his early career and in his late career but who did he fight from '94 to '03? No one.

This supports the idea that Roy was much more consistent than James. After James struggled with disappointing fight outcomes and weight issues he was pretty much MIA with regard to the big stage in boxing. In that time he fought Griffin and an older McCallum. You have to remember that he wasn't exactly a model of health or consistency...it killed a lot of big fight opportunities for him.

Nunn vs Toney
The scorecards at the time of the stoppage:
Gary Merritt 93-97 judge: Bob Watson 91-99 judge: Dalby Shirley 92-98

Toney had no other chance of winning that fight with Nunn other than a knockout.

I spent lots of time making this post so you better read it

He had no chance but the knockout, and he got the knockout, so why is this meaningful ^? Yeah he was down on points, but he took over the fight late and stopped a very good opponent.

The point I want to make is that all bull**** aside, these guys are very close in terms of talent what they have accomplished in their careers. Roy was a dominating talent who made the most out of his ability for a long period of time. Toney was an unbelievable natural talent all the same but he lacked the consistency and discipline that Roy had. I can't get mad at anyone for saying Jones was the better guy, but James wasn't too far behind him.

[TheGreatA]

I agree with your first statement. However, outside of Jones beating Toney, James has beaten better fighters in my opinion. You are correct about the comparable opponents as well, although James fought most of those common opponents well before Roy fought them. That may be trivial, but I just thought I'd point it out. Jirov and Nunn were better wins than your two best Roy wins outside of Toney.

It depends.

I consider Roy's wins over Toney, Hill, Griffin (at the time because he was undefeated and beat Toney twice and RJJ by DQ), Ruiz and Tarver very good.
Toney had very good wins over Nunn, McCallum, Barkley and Jirov.

Roy consistently beat more solid opposition, there are lots of titleholders on his resume.
Roy won more world titles, Roy dominated as the p4p number 1 for a long time, Roy didn't really lose until he was in his mid-30's, Toney lost to Griffin, Jones and Thadzi when he was supposedly in his prime.

That's why I consider Jones' resume better.

He had no chance but the knockout, and he got the knockout, so why is this meaningful ^? Yeah he was down on points, but he took over the fight late and stopped a very good opponent.

It was a response to Toney supporters saying Toney was close to Nunn on points but this wasn't the case. Toney's only chance was to win by KO and he got it.

The point I want to make is that all bull**** aside, these guys are very close in terms of talent what they have accomplished in their careers. Roy was a dominating talent who made the most out of his ability for a long period of time. Toney was an unbelievable natural talent all the same but he lacked the consistency and discipline that Roy had. I can't get mad at anyone for saying Jones was the better guy, but James wasn't too far behind him.

Toney isn't too far behind but I just don't see how he could be AHEAD of Jones and I'm a big Toney supporter because he has an old school attitude, fighting on the inside and taking on the best opposition out there.
This wasn't always the case with Jones, I have often argued about it and many have labelled me as a RJJ hater.

[Degsy]

Just because Toney is underrated and Roy is overrated doesn't mean Toney is better than Roy.
Roy has consistently beaten better opposition and beaten their comparable opposition much more impressively than Toney did.

Roy's best wins:
Young Bernard Hopkins
James Toney (p4p #2 at the time)
Thulani Malinga (beat Benn/Reid)
Eric Lucas (went on to become SMW champion)
Old Mike McCallum past his best weight
Montell Griffin (coming off two wins over Toney and a DQ win over Jones)
Virgil Hill (former undisputed LHW champion)
Otis Grant (WBO MW champion)
Reggie Johnson (IBF LHW champion at the time)
Lou Del Valle (two time WBA LHW champion, won vacant titles though)
Eric Harding (first man to beat Tarver)
Julio Cesar Gonzales (went on to beat Dariusz Michelczewski)
Clinton Woods (IBF champion today)
John Ruiz
Antonio Tarver

Toney's best wins:
Michael Nunn (undefeated Mw champ)
Reggie Johnson
Mike McCallum (past prime but capable)
Iran Barkley (3-division champ)
Tim Littles (undefeated at the time but career pretty much ended by Toney)
Charles Williams
Vassiliy Jirov (undefeated CW champ)
Old Evander Holyfield
John Ruiz (no contest due to steroid use)
Dominick Guinn (decent HW contender at the time)
draw with Rahman
close fight with Peter

Now lets look how they did against comparable opposition:

Merqui Sosa: Jones TKO2, Toney SD
Reggie Johnson: Jones shutout UD, Toney SD (dropped once)
Glenn Wolfe: Jones TKO1, Toney UD
Tony Thornton: Jones TKO3, Toney UD
Montell Griffin: Jones loss by DQ, Jones win KO1, Toney loss MD, loss UD
40 year old McCallum: Jones wins by shutout UD, Toney wins by close but clear UD
John Ruiz: both win by clear margins, Toney caught from steroids



Toney has fought great opposition in his early career and in his late career but who did he fight from '94 to '03? No one. He wasted YEARS off his career fighting journeymen.

Also Toney won world titles at MW, SMW, CW but never at LHW or HW (because of steroids).

Nunn vs Toney
The scorecards at the time of the stoppage:
Gary Merritt 93-97 judge: Bob Watson 91-99 judge: Dalby Shirley 92-98

Toney had no other chance of winning that fight with Nunn other than a knockout.

I spent lots of time making this post so you better read it.

those that know always appreciate your posts, even if they don't necessarily agree every time. Cool N.European logic rules!!!

[oldgringo]

It depends.

I consider Roy's wins over Toney, Hill, Griffin (at the time because he was undefeated and beat Toney twice and RJJ by DQ), Ruiz and Tarver very good.
Toney had very good wins over Nunn, McCallum, Barkley and Jirov.

Roy consistently beat more solid opposition, there are lots of titleholders on his resume.
Roy won more world titles, Roy dominated as the p4p number 1 for a long time, Roy didn't really lose until he was in his mid-30's, Toney lost to Griffin, Jones and Thadzi when he was supposedly in his prime.

That's why I consider Jones' resume better.



It was a response to Toney supporters saying Toney was close to Nunn on points but this wasn't the case. Toney's only chance was to win by KO and he got it.



Toney isn't too far behind but I just don't see how he could be AHEAD of Jones and I'm a big Toney supporter because he has an old school attitude, fighting on the inside and taking on the best opposition out there.
This wasn't always the case with Jones, I have often argued about it and many have labelled me as a RJJ hater.

Well said. Roy's consistency is certainly something that sets him apart from James.