For those of you who put think Marciano is overrated

[butterfly1964]

A guy like Dempsey? Dempsey was a great heavyweight. He cleaned out the division before he became champ, had one of the greatest runs of any heavyweight ever prior to winning the title from Willard.

Agreed.

[micky_knox]

you dont go 49-0-0 unless you are somthing special

rocky was very special

[hhascup]

you dont go 49-0-0 unless you are somthing special

rocky was very special

I agree, BUT you can not just go by the records, it's who you fought that really counts.

[micky_knox]

I agree, BUT you can not just go by the records, it's who you fought that really counts.

he fought his way to a title shot........won the title and defended it 6 times (i think it was 6)
then retired undefeated

thats pretty awesome for anybody


rocky could only fight who was around in his era.

[hhascup]

he fought his way to a title shot........won the title and defended it 6 times (i think it was 6)
then retired undefeated

thats pretty awesome for anybody


rocky could only fight who was around in his era.

Yes, he fought just about everyone.

Some of the contenders at that time he didn't box was Nino Valdes, who was rated the #1 contender for two years during Rocky's time as the Champ. Also Bob Baker, who was rated #2 at that time. Clarence Henry was another one.

[micky_knox]

I agree, BUT you can not just go by the records, it's who you fought that really counts.

Yes, he fought just about everyone.

Some of the contenders at that time he didn't box was Nino Valdes, who was rated the #1 contender for two years during Rocky's time as the Champ. Also Bob Baker, who was rated #2 at that time. Clarence Henry was another one.

actually i always wonderd why he didnt go for 50

i heard he had a back injury but im not sure if its true....

im embarrased to say i dont know why he retired,but i really would be shocked if it was to duck anybody

[Brockton Lip]

It was due to a back injury that he had as well as losing some of his desire to train as hard as he usually did.
The opponents he faced were very underrated. I won't get into all of them as some were mentioned but Lastarza and Layne as well as Matthews are quite underrated.

[micky_knox]

It was due to a back injury that he had as well as losing some of his desire to train as hard as he usually did.
The opponents he faced were very underrated. I won't get into all of them as some were mentioned but Lastarza and Layne as well as Matthews are quite underrated.

thanks for that

i love the rock

no matter what anybody says 49-0-0 is awesome.....

if it wasnt why did holmes want so badly to beat it? and sulk when he didnt?

[hhascup]

It was due to a back injury that he had as well as losing some of his desire to train as hard as he usually did.
The opponents he faced were very underrated. I won't get into all of them as some were mentioned but Lastarza and Layne as well as Matthews are quite underrated.

Rocky stopped because of his back and his manager, who he didn't get along with.

I agree that LaStarza and Layne were two of the best of that time. Matthews was pretty good too, BUT he was a light Heavyweight. He weighed only 179 pounds when he fought Rocky.

Here's what I wrote on another web site when I stated that Rocky fought a lot of guys that were past their primes

Age is not what I am talking about. Some boxers are past there primes when there in there early to mid 20's and others are in there primes when there in there late 30's.

Rocky fought the best that was out there during his time, BUT the best of his times wasn't as good as other times.

Rocky never fought anyone who hit as hard as Shavers, Foreman or Frazier. He never fought anyone that was as fast as Ali or Patterson.

Lets look at the best boxers he fought:

Rocky fought LaStarza twice (1950 & 1953) and he was very good. A lot of people thought LaStarza beat Rocky in their 1st bout. Rocky would stop him in the return bout.

He also fought Walcott (1952 & 1953) and Charles (both in 1954) twice each. Charles had 90 bouts at that time and he had seen better days.

In his 1st bout with Rocky, Charles fought very well, and it was a lot closer then a lot of people thought it would be and people wanted to see a return go. Rocky stopped Charles in the return bout.

In the 1st Walcott bout going into the 13th round, the judges had Jersey Joe ahead 7-4, 7-5 and 8-4. Rocky stopped Jersey Joe in the return bout in 1 round.

He only fought another 10 boxers that were ever in the 10 top by Ring at one time or another.

Phil Muscato (December 1949) was last rated in the top 10 in 1948, he fought Rocky the next year after losing 4 in a row and 5 out of his last 6 before boxing Rocky.

Johnny Shkor (September 1950) was 29-18-2 at the time he fought Rocky in 1950. He was last rated in 1947. He just got stopped by Walcott and lost his last 7 of 11 bouts.

Rex Layne (July 1951) had a pro record of 34-1-2 with 24 knockouts going into the bout with Rocky. He was a very good boxer, in fact he was one of the best at that time.

Freddy Beshore (August 1951) was last rated in October 1950, Rocky fought him in August of 1951. He lost 7 of his last 9 bouts before he fought Rocky.

Joe Louis (October 1951) who was still good, BUT way past his prime.

Lee Savold (February 1952) was last rated in 1951, Rocky stopped him in 1952. Savold was also stopped 9 times before his bout with Rocky, including one by an aging Joe Louis.

Bernie Reynolds (May 1952), who lost 4 out of his last 6 bouts before boxing Rocky in 1952. Reynolds was past his prime as the last time he was rated was 1949.

Harry Kid Matthews (July 1952) was an excellent boxer with an excellent record, but he was really was a Light Heavyweight.

Don ****ell (May 1955) beat Matthews 3 times and LaStarza. He was also stopped 6 times before he fought Rocky, including a bout with Randy Turpin, a Middleweight, in which he out weigh Turpin by 12 pounds. He was dropped 3 times in the bout.

Archie Moore (September 1955), he was one of the Greatest Light Heavyweights ever.

So if you go by this, the only boxers that were rated in the top 10 when he fought them were Walcott, Charles and LaStarza twice each, Louis, Moore, Layne, Matthews and ****ell. So that means he fought only 8 boxers, 11 times that were rated in the top 10 at the time he fought them.

Ali, Holmes, Louis and others, have fought far more top 10 contenders then that.

Again, if you go just by the record, Rocky is the Greatest, BUT you can't just go by that. Its who they fought that counts.

I only wish Marciano was around during the time of Ali, Holmes, Louis in his prime. Maybe he would prove to be the Greatest by beating all of them, BUT we will never know because he wasn't.

[Kid Achilles]

Good post. Still you can also pick apart many of Ali's opponents. In the 60's, he's credited with beating Cleveland Williams in what many consider his greatest display of skill and raw talent, but in fact Williams was completely shot. In fact, he had actually been shot with a bullet previously, and was never the same after the incident.

Against Norton, all of his victories are debatable. He never beat Norton convincingly.

The two wins over Frazier should have an asterix next to them as Joe was as far as i'm concerned, over the hill for the rematch and as good as shot for the final fight.

Liston, a good victory, is marred with controversy. The 2nd fight Liston clearly dumped but even the first one does not have everyone convinced. Even if Ali did beat Liston (and personallty I think he did) Liston was clearly mentally and physicall not prepared for that fight as well as being past his prime.

The Foreman win was a great one, perhaps the greatest on his record.

I think Ali's best line of work is in how consistently he beat solid contenders like Quarry, Chuvalo, Patterson (ex champ in this case), etc.

Ali has one of the best resume's in heavyweight history by Louis is right there directly behind him. Ali is by no means in a league of his own with his resume.

Still both Ali and Louis had better resumes than Marciano.