For those of you who put think Marciano is overrated

[hhascup]

Good post. Still you can also pick apart many of Ali's opponents. In the 60's, he's credited with beating Cleveland Williams in what many consider his greatest display of skill and raw talent, but in fact Williams was completely shot. In fact, he had actually been shot with a bullet previously, and was never the same after the incident.

Against Norton, all of his victories are debatable. He never beat Norton convincingly.

The two wins over Frazier should have an asterix next to them as Joe was as far as i'm concerned, over the hill for the rematch and as good as shot for the final fight.

Liston, a good victory, is marred with controversy. The 2nd fight Liston clearly dumped but even the first one does not have everyone convinced. Even if Ali did beat Liston (and personallty I think he did) Liston was clearly mentally and physicall not prepared for that fight as well as being past his prime.

The Foreman win was a great one, perhaps the greatest on his record.

I think Ali's best line of work is in how consistently he beat solid contenders like Quarry, Chuvalo, Patterson (ex champ in this case), etc.

Ali has one of the best resume's in heavyweight history by Louis is right there directly behind him. Ali is by no means in a league of his own with his resume.

Still both Ali and Louis had better resumes than Marciano.

You can pick Ali's opponents a part like you said, BUT he fought a lot more top boxers then Marciano ever did. In fact he fought the best of any Heavyweight Champion, with Louis coming in 2nd.

I think I posted their STATS before, BUT here they are again:

Of Ali's 61 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them 38 times (62.295%), winning 33 (54.098%) of them. He also fought a total of 49 bouts that boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 61 bouts. That's a percentage of 80.3279%.

Of Louis's 72 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them 34 times (47.887%), winning 31 (43.056%) of them. He also fought a total of 54 boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 72 bouts. That's a percentage of 76.056%.

Of Rocky's 49 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them only 11 times (22.44898%), winning all 11 (22.44898%) of them. He also fought a total of 16 bouts that boxers were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 49 bouts. That's a percentage of only 32.653%.

Ali fought boxers with an average pro record of 32.23 - 5.25 - 1.2 for an average winning percentage of 85.268595%

Louis fought boxers with an average pro record of 38.1 - 10.23 - 2.6 for an average winning percentage of 77.349364%

Rocky fought boxers with an average pro record of 29.7 - 10.16 - 1.77 for an average winning percentage of 73.48%

I am sorry if I am repeating myself. I just like to go with all the facts.

[SABBATH]

Good post. Still you can also pick apart many of Ali's opponents. In the 60's, he's credited with beating Cleveland Williams in what many consider his greatest display of skill and raw talent, but in fact Williams was completely shot. In fact, he had actually been shot with a bullet previously, and was never the same after the incident.

Against Norton, all of his victories are debatable. He never beat Norton convincingly.

The two wins over Frazier should have an asterix next to them as Joe was as far as i'm concerned, over the hill for the rematch and as good as shot for the final fight.

Cleveland Williams was rated #3 in Ring ****zine at the time of the Ali fight, was on a 9 fight undefeated run and had only been stopped by two men in 71 professional fights, those being Sonny Liston and Bob Satterfield, two of the hardest hitting heavyweights of all time. So it doesn't quite compare to the Marciano opponents who were on losing streaks, suffered multiple KO losses or were no longer in the ratings.

As for the 'asterik' on Ali's fights against Frazier, the same could be said about Ali. Both guys declined at the same rate which is why all three fights were so competitive. In fact I rate Frazier's June 1974 KO of Jerry Quarry one of his career best performances.

[hhascup]

Cleveland Williams was rated #3 in Ring ****zine at the time of the Ali fight, was on a 9 fight undefeated run and had only been stopped by two men in 71 professional fights, those being Sonny Liston and Bob Satterfield, two of the hardest hitting heavyweights of all time. So it doesn't quite compare to the Marciano opponents who were on losing streaks, suffered multiple KO losses or were no longer in the ratings.

As for the 'asterik' on Ali's fights against Frazier, the same could be said about Ali. Both guys declined at the same rate which is why all three fights were so competitive. In fact I rate Frazier's June 1974 KO of Jerry Quarry one of his career best performances.

I think everyone remembers that Williams was out of boxing for almost a year and a half (he didn't box at all in 1965) because he was shot. BUT, he was still one of the most danderous heavyweights of that time.

[SABBATH]

I think everyone remembers that Williams was out of boxing for almost a year and a half (he didn't box at all in 1965) because he was shot. BUT, he was still one of the most danderous heavyweights of that time.

With 51 KO's in 65 wins at the time I would agree.

[brownpimp88]

Look hhascup, it doesnt matter if louis had top 10 wins. It is a wide known fact those guys just ended up being bums of the month. Quality is greater than quantity.

[hhascup]

Look hhascup, it doesnt matter if louis had top 10 wins. It is a wide known fact those guys just ended up being bums of the month. Quality is greater than quantity.

Bum of the Month was just a term they used as Louis would defend his title so much. Louis was the Champion longer then anyone and defended his title more anyone, that is a FACT!

[brownpimp88]

Bum of the Month was just a term they used as Louis would defend his title so much. Louis was the Champion longer then anyone and defended his title more anyone, that is a FACT!

That doesnt matter, he never fought an opponent that had the skills of holmes, lennox, holyfield or the power of foreman.

[hhascup]

Look hhascup, it doesnt matter if louis had top 10 wins. It is a wide known fact those guys just ended up being bums of the month. Quality is greater than quantity.

That doesnt matter, he never fought an opponent that had the skills of holmes, lennox, holyfield or the power of foreman.

Almost every boxing expert would disagree with that statement. You don't hold a title for nearly 12 years without doing something Great.

Foreman had trouble with Peralta twice. What do you think Louis would have done to him.

As far as Holmes, who I think is very under rated, and Lewis goes, Foreman never fought them either. Foreman would distroy boxers that came at him like Frazier, Norton, etc. He almost got KO'ed by Ron Lyle in one of the Geatest matches I had ever seen.

I would rate Ali #1 and Louis #2 on my all-time list.

[brownpimp88]

Almost every boxing expert would disagree with that statement. You don't hold a title for nearly 12 years without doing something Great.

Foreman had trouble with Peralta twice. What do you think Louis would have done to him.

As far as Holmes, who I think is very under rated, and Lewis goes, Foreman never fought them either. Foreman would distroy boxers that came at him like Frazier, Norton, etc. He almost got KO'ed by Ron Lyle in one of the Geatest matches I had ever seen.

I would rate Ali #1 and Louis #2 on my all-time list.

yeah by legacy they are the top 2, but head to head comparisions louis isnt close. He would have a major size disadvantage against many of the fighters. Holmes would have jabbed him to death and tko'd him, its the truth.

[hhascup]

yeah by legacy they are the top 2, but head to head comparisions louis isnt close. He would have a major size disadvantage against many of the fighters. Holmes would have jabbed him to death and tko'd him, its the truth.

I look at it this way, they fought many years a part, don't you think if Louis fought in Holmes or Foreman's time, he would be a little bigger. With the vitamins, training, etc. As time goes on the average person gets a little bigger, so would Louis.

Holmes, like I said before, is very under rated. Bert Sugar, who is a friend of mine, put Holmes at #10.

1. Louis
2. Ali
3. Dempsey
4. Johnson
5. Tunney
6. Marciano
7. Charles
8. Foreman
9. Frazier
10. Holmes

Bert Sugar, 1991

1.Jack Dempsey
2.Joe Louis
3.Muhammad Ali
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Joe Frazier
8.Larry Holmes
9.Sonny Liston
10.Mike Tyson

I asked him last week about why did he rate one way in 1991 and another way now. I stated that he listens to people, people that knew what their talking about.