Comparing Listons resume with Rocky Marciano

[Willie Pep 229]

Charles had nearly100 fights on his clock, and had lost 2 of his 4 fights,he had been a pro for 14 years,he was clearly past his prime.

Charles' Manager: Got to give one to Billy 'Skeets' Harrison.

Charles didn't just lose two of his last four fights, he lost to two #1 contenders, Valdes (HW) and Johnson (LHW), (but he did take both the distance.)

Either Valdes or Johnson could have been considered more worthy for the title shot, but Charles got it.

So I think we have to look back at Billy 'Skeets' Harrison and ask how did he pull that rabbit out of his ass?

Who owed 'Skeets' a favor?

His guy Charles held the title in 1949 just when Joe Louis was going about signing up fighters' managers for the new IBC.

Did Frankie Carbo owe him for helping launch the IBC? Maybe Billy Skeets Harrison knew how to play ball with the mob guys.

It is hard to argue that Charles got the first fight on merit.

The Rematch on the other hand: Credit for landing the immediate rematch has to go 100% to Charles himself. Charles taking Marciano the distance brought the house down; some called it his best night.

Fans really wanted the rematch.

But one has to wonder why he got the first fight in '54. He was only looking so-so and hindsight tells us today, that he was near his end.

P.S. Or should have been near the end. Charles is a classic example of a 'stayed too long' fighter.

[Bronson66]

Charles' Manager: Got to give one to Billy 'Skeets' Harrison.

Charles didn't just lose two of his last four fights, he lost to two #1 contenders, Valdes (HW) and Johnson (LHW), (but he did take both the distance.)

Either Valdes or Johnson could have been considered more worthy for the title shot, but Charles got it.

So I think we have to look back at Billy 'Skeets' Harrison and ask how did he pull that rabbit out of his ass?

Who owed 'Skeets' a favor?

His guy Charles held the title in 1949 just when Joe Louis was going about signing up fighters' managers for the new IBC.

Did Frankie Carbo owe him for helping launch the IBC? Maybe Billy Skeets Harrison knew how to play ball with the mob guys.

It is hard to argue that Charles got the first fight on merit.

The Rematch on the other hand: Credit for landing the immediate rematch has to go 100% to Charles himself. Charles taking Marciano the distance brought the house down; some called it his best night.

Fans really wanted the rematch.

But one has to wonder why he got the first fight in '54. He was only looking so-so and hindsight tells us today, that he was near his end.

P.S. Or should have been near the end. Charles is a classic example of a 'stayed too long' fighter.

Jake Mintz guided Charles to the title,when he died in 1957 TomTannas took over.

[them_apples]

Charles' Manager: Got to give one to Billy 'Skeets' Harrison.

Charles didn't just lose two of his last four fights, he lost to two #1 contenders, Valdes (HW) and Johnson (LHW), (but he did take both the distance.)

Either Valdes or Johnson could have been considered more worthy for the title shot, but Charles got it.

So I think we have to look back at Billy 'Skeets' Harrison and ask how did he pull that rabbit out of his ass?

Who owed 'Skeets' a favor?

His guy Charles held the title in 1949 just when Joe Louis was going about signing up fighters' managers for the new IBC.

Did Frankie Carbo owe him for helping launch the IBC? Maybe Billy Skeets Harrison knew how to play ball with the mob guys.

It is hard to argue that Charles got the first fight on merit.

The Rematch on the other hand: Credit for landing the immediate rematch has to go 100% to Charles himself. Charles taking Marciano the distance brought the house down; some called it his best night.

Fans really wanted the rematch.

But one has to wonder why he got the first fight in '54. He was only looking so-so and hindsight tells us today, that he was near his end.

P.S. Or should have been near the end. Charles is a classic example of a 'stayed too long' fighter.

He was ranked number 1 thats how he got the title shot.

Valdez didn’t look good that year and dropped in the rankings

tbh Valdez is pretty overrated I noticed people cling on to him because he was big and Marciano never faced him. 180 lb Moore put a masterclass on him though.

just image had Marciano NOT fought Charles. I could only imagine. He would be behind 30-1 on the polls

[Bronson66]

He was ranked number 1 thats how he got the title shot.

Valdez didnâÂÂt look good that year and dropped in the rankings

tbh Valdez is pretty overrated I noticed people cling on to him because he was big and Marciano never faced him. 180 lb Moore put a masterclass on him though.

just image had Marciano NOT fought Charles. I could only imagine. He would be behind 30-1 on the polls

Moore didnt put a masterclass on Valdes in their 2nd fight
196 lbs beat 209 lbs by PTS in round 15 of 15

• Date: 1955-05-02
• Location: Cashman Field, Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
• Referee: 8-5

"In the rough battle, referee Jim Braddock took one round away from each battler because of low blows. There were no knockdowns but each was knocked back onto his heels several times during the exciting slugging match. Archie Moore was bleeding from the nose and mouth at the finish, and his left eye also was swollen. But he could see very well. Nino Valdes forced the fighting in nearly every round and tried to impale his bobbing-weaving opponent with long left jabs and whistling rights. In the 13th session, Nino's left eye was closed tightly shut and he fought on half-blinded and fatigued. Moore's superiority in the 14th and 15th rounds clinched the fight and gave Moore his 20th straight victory." - United Press Notes

Valdes last fight was a stoppage of no 8 ranked Brian London.

[GhostofDempsey]

Cleveland Williams was a much better fighter when Liston fought him at his prime and before he was shot by a cop and never the same again. He would have beaten LaStarza, Moore and Layne rather easily. Patterson beat Moore a year after Rocky and did it much easier. I'm of the opinion Liston's fights with Ali were fixed so I'm not sure we got to see Sonny shine at his best.

One could argue their resumes are about equal though. Rocky had the bigger names but Louis, Charles, Moore and Walcott were past their primes. The media and press was also much kinder to Rocky than Sonny. That went a long way in his popularity and legacy.

[Willow The Wisp]

Liston joins Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, Louis and Charles in having the best pre-title resume. Liston did phenomenal work leading up to relieving Patterson of the title. He had more to work with in those years than Marciano was ever afforded.

[Bronson66]

liston joins johnson, dempsey, tunney, louis and charles in having the best pre-title resume. Liston did phenomenal work leading up to relieving patterson of the title. He had more to work with in those years than marciano was ever afforded.

Liston beat 6 top ten ranked men before he got his title shot.
Tunney beat 2 ,Gibbons and Spalla.

[Marchegiano]

Liston joins Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, Louis and Charles in having the best pre-title resume. Liston did phenomenal work leading up to relieving Patterson of the title. He had more to work with in those years than Marciano was ever afforded.

Jeffries pre-title run wasn't bad either.

[BKM-]

Liston has a better resume. His two big wins over Patterson are the best wins between him and Marciano, the Williams and Folley wins quite good since they were primed unlike most of Rocky's opponents and Liston cleaned out the HW division before he even won the title. He faced a lot more adversity than Rocky too as contenders ducked him, being mistreated by the media and fans, his advanced age once he finally was allowed to reach the top, and then Clay and his psychopath goons freaking him out.

Overall though I don't mind Marciano being ranked above him since he was lucky to be born in that timeframe, he had a more shiny career. Luck plays a big factor in how great an ATG can become, many don't realize that. I said this in the other thread, if Liston was placed in the 70s I believe he would be higher regarded because I can see him slaughtering the entire division, defeat George Foreman and then lose to Ali. Imagine his resume. To be fair btw, I think he would have issues with Young and Holmes.

Anyway, Apple boy, you can't be serious about Marciano beating Liston? This is a horrendous styles mismatch. Marciano only fights going forward. Liston is a brick wall, one of the strongest HW grapplers of all time. He pushes Marciano on his back legs which will put him out of balance the entire fight, then he gets hit with uppercuts and short powerful hooks. It will probably look similar to the Patterson KO but Marciano would put up a better fight.

[Bronson66]

Cleveland Williams was a much better fighter when Liston fought him at his prime and before he was shot by a cop and never the same again. He would have beaten LaStarza, Moore and Layne rather easily. Patterson beat Moore a year after Rocky and did it much easier. I'm of the opinion Liston's fights with Ali were fixed so I'm not sure we got to see Sonny shine at his best.

One could argue their resumes are about equal though. Rocky had the bigger names but Louis, Charles, Moore and Walcott were past their primes. The media and press was also much kinder to Rocky than Sonny. That went a long way in his popularity and legacy.

I don't think Williams would have beaten Moore easily,if at all,but I agree he beats Layne and Lastarza.