Beterbiev vs these past heavyweights

[JAB5239]

He did? Who were they? I thought it was zero, after a quick check I have him beating one Top 5 ranked fighter in his entire career....Arthur Williams.

Brown, Montana, Willams. Castro.

His resume is total garbage, it's not even garbage, it's worse than that. Who did Jirov beat? Nobody.

Im not claiming a great resume for Jirov.

I couldn't care less if he's an Olympic Gold medalist. David Price is an Olympic Bronze Medalist. Audley Harrison is an Olympic Gold Medalist. It's irrelevant to their pro careers.

Absolutely true. But that doesn't mean he was trash. Hes much better and more accomplished to the fighters you compared him
to.

He was the absolute epitome of a hype job. Did absolutely nothing of note of as a pro and has a resume not far off Jeff Lacy's. He's not even remotely close to Beterbiev's level as a fighter.

Who was hyping him? He was a very good fighter. I never said he accomplished as much as Beterbiev.

Don't think so at all. He's not going to sit on Toney's chest and throw one punch at a time. That the only time Toney excels in any kind of way.

Toney's not "excellent" defensively. He's good defensively. He's not going to evade Beterbiev's punches for 12 rounds, is he? He never once did that in his career at any point agasint anyone worth anything of real note

No fighter evades every punch. But Toney is far better at it than Artur, and an excellent counter puncher. He's also shown an incredible chin durable enough to stand up to true heavyweight power.

I mean, I'm sure it would be competitive. Toney proved he could be competitive and even sometimes beat top, elite fighters but he never ever beat one comfortably and clearly and it ain't starting with a fighter the caliber of Beterbiev. Or are we living in some parallel universe where James Toney doesn't get hit consistently and lose rounds consistently every single time he fights someone ranked in the Top 5?

"Crusierweight" version again is a nonsense to me, there is no difference between the "versions". He had one fight of note there.

Toney looked most comfortable at Cruiserweight. He was just to lazy to stay there and wanted heavyweight money.

Took fights off where? He didn't take fights off. That's nothing more than an excuse.. There is no difference between any version of Toney that stepped in the ring. He just proved time and time again he's not good enough to beat elite fighters in a clear or comfortable manner.

Totally disagree. An unmotivated Toney took fights off and paid for it in reputation.

Let's not start this crap. We are having a conversation/debate. Let's not start this "you don't like him therefore x" bullshit. I have explained ad nasuem that I have no dislike what so ever for Toney. There are a plethora of fighters that I actively dislike, Toney is not one of them. I just assess his career and abililty by what actually happened as opposed to the alernate reality that some fans like to put out there.


Ok.

Beterbiev is a very skilled fighter. That's not even up for debate.

Never said he wasn't. But he's also tailor made for Toney in my opinion.

Toney is also a skilled fighter. Don't see him as any way more skilled than Beterbiev. They both have skills and both have gaping flaws and limits.

again, I'll respectfully disagree with this.

There is absolutely, categorically, ZERO evidence what so ever that Toney could "pick apart" a fighter even close to Beterbiev's level.

What level is he? What great fighters has he been in with? He's a very good fighter, maybe he'll even be considered amongst the greats one day. But I don't see him as any better than Jirov. Just a better puncher.

He never "picked apart" any top level, elite fighter. He didn't even clearly beat a fighter of that description (outside of Nunn which he was being beaten clearly in before the KO). There is absolutely nothing to suggest that all of a sudden that starts with a fighter on the level of Beterbeiv, outside of alternative reality and fantasy world stuff.

Toney's resume completely above Beterbiev's at this point. He's seen more styles and been in with better fighters. I'll stick with my opinion after watching both for many years now that Toney would pick him apart with counter punches and win a close but comfortable decision.

[IronDanHamza]

Toney's resume completely above Beterbiev's at this point. He's seen more styles and been in with better fighters. I'll stick with my opinion after watching both for many years now that Toney would pick him apart with counter punches and win a close but comfortable decision.

This is better. This is a good back and forth.

Don't disagree Toney has the better resume. But it's arguable. I'd lean on Toney there with the quality wins he has slightly outweighs Beterbeiv's.

Brown, Montana, Willams. Castro.

Laughable though, isn't it?

Absolutely true. But that doesn't mean he was trash. Hes much better and more accomplished to the fighters you compared him
to.

Never said he was trash. Said he was a hype job, which he was. In the sense that he came in off winning a gold medal and had a nothing career.

No fighter evades every punch. But Toney is far better at it than Artur, and an excellent counter puncher. He's also shown an incredible chin durable enough to stand up to true heavyweight power.

No where did I say they do.

What I'm saying is Toney get's hit a lot. He just does. He isn't some defensive wizard like a lot of people claim. He has a nice shoulder roll, flat and slow feet to the point he get's hit consistently every single time he fought any one of real note. That's just a fact of the matter. Beterbiev is going to hit him and hit him often. I'm sure Toney hits Betbiev often too. I wouldn't expect a one sided fight either way but I don't see anything in Toney's career to suggest he could beat Beterbiev in any way comfortably. He never showed that at any point.

Toney looked most comfortable at Cruiserweight. He was just to lazy to stay there and wanted heavyweight money.

I don't understand how you could make that assesment when he had one fight there to which he won a competitive decison against a fighter he never proved to be anywhere elite. That doesn't make any sense.

Totally disagree. An unmotivated Toney took fights off and paid for it in reputation.

So how exactly do you differentiate between "unmotivated" and "motivated" Toney?

There is no difference. It's an excuse and nothing more.

Never said he wasn't. But he's also tailor made for Toney in my opinion.

It is totally unfathomable to me that you can watch someone's career with your own two eyes and form this insane opinion.

How could you possibly argue that Beterbiev is tailor made for Toney? The simple fact Beterbiev has a top quality jab alone debunks that because we know from countless amounts of footage that it's not difficult to hit Toney with a jab.

We also know that he he struggles with footwork/footspeed/in and out movement which Beterbiev brings to the table very well.

He's anything but tailor made for Toney, he has multilple tools and facets to his game that have shown to be extremely difficult for a Toney to handle.

Someone tailor made for Toney is someone who #1 isn't elite, and #2 is going to throw one punch at a time. Beterbiev is neither of those.

What level is he? What great fighters has he been in with? He's a very good fighter, maybe he'll even be considered amongst the greats one day. But I don't see him as any better than Jirov. Just a better puncher.

Am I in the twilight zone?

Beterbiev is elite, obviously.

He's the undisputed LHW champion of the world and one of the Top 5 P4P fighters in the entire sport. That is as elite as a fighter can possibly get.

To even compare him to the likes of Jirov is baffling.

Toney doesn't have a single clear/comfortable/dominant(whatever you want to call it) win over a Top level opponent, let alone an elite one.

[IronDanHamza]

I really have to look at Jirov's resume. How would you say they are opposites? I get that Jirov was more of a power puncher, but with respect to their style in the ring. I do think given just his victory over Canelo, that alone would give Bivol a tremendous resume advantage.

Stylistically? I'm struggling to see even a single comparison.

Resume wise it's not worth entertaining. Jirov's resume is a joke and surely no one is going to argue against that.

[Biledriver]

Don't think he "looked his best" at Cruiserweight at all. He had one fight there against a hype job in Jirov who beat 0 ranked fighters in his career and won a competitive decision against him.

Jirov obviously being levels below the fighter Beterbiev is.

I don't see how you could possibly argue that any version of Toney "comfortably" beats a fighter on the level of Beterbiev. He didn't beat any elite fighter comfortably at any point of his career let alone one the level of Beterbiev and regularly couldn't even beat unranked journeyman comfortably. Can't see any logical reason to think it would suddenly start there.

I also don't think Beterbiev is a "basic" fighter at all. Especially not in comparison to Toney who is quite the basic fighter himself.

That's a lot of shine for a fighter with only 21 fights. How on Earth can anyone gauge how good a fighter is when he's literally a 39-year-old prospect?

Biledriver

[IronDanHamza]

That's a lot of shine for a fighter with only 21 fights. How on Earth can anyone gauge how good a fighter is when he's literally a 39-year-old prospect?

Biledriver

How can the Undisputed LHW Champion of the world, who is also the the P4P #4 fighter in the world be "literally a prospect"?

How is it possible to be both of those things at the same time? He is quite literally, by definition of the of word "literal", not that.

[Biledriver]

How can the Undisputed LHW Champion of the world, who is also the the P4P #4 fighter in the world be "literally a prospect"?

How is it possible to be both of those things at the same time? He is quite literally, by definition of the of word "literal", not that.

Because at 20 fights he should be jerking the curtain and just breaking into 10 rounders, not holding a fu cking belt. This is why boxing today is complete garbage and has been for the past 15-20 years. Btw, if being pedantic is your first tactic, you can’t be taken seriously on the this or any other topic. I’ve known you for years and thought you were better than that. I guess not, more’s the pity. Crying shame, but I’ll get over it and engage with people who aren’t going address me in bad faith.

Biledriver

[IronDanHamza]

Because at 20 fights he should be jerking the curtain and just breaking into 10 rounders, not holding a fu cking belt. This is why boxing today is complete garbage and has been for the past 15-20 years. Btw, if being pedantic is your first tactic, you can’t be taken seriously on the this or any other topic. I’ve known you for years and thought you were better than that. I guess not, more’s the pity. Crying shame, but I’ll get over it and engage with people who aren’t going address me in bad faith.

Biledriver

What's that got to do with anything? If anything, that proves how elite he is by being able to essentially clean out an entire division and becoming one of the 5 best fighters in the entire sport across all weight classes in only 21 fights.

He's able to make that rapid transition like this because he was an elite amateur of over 300 fights, including a win over the current HW Champion and #1 P4P fighter in the world Oleksander Usyk.

The number of fights you have isn't what makes you a prospect, it's the level of fighters you beat. He also doesn't hold "a belt" he holds THE belt (all of them). He's beaten every Champion, and almost all the contenders in the division.

Surely it is a totally non sensical notion to describe the LHW Champion of the world and one of the 5 best fighters in the entire sport as a prospect?

And side note, not a single part of my post was in any way pedantic. I am responding directly to your argument.

[JAB5239]

This is better. This is a good back and forth.

Don't disagree Toney has the better resume. But it's arguable. I'd lean on Toney there with the quality wins he has slightly outweighs Beterbeiv's.




Laughable though, isn't it?



Never said he was trash. Said he was a hype job, which he was. In the sense that he came in off winning a gold medal and had a nothing career.





No where did I say they do.

What I'm saying is Toney get's hit a lot. He just does. He isn't some defensive wizard like a lot of people claim. He has a nice shoulder roll, flat and slow feet to the point he get's hit consistently every single time he fought any one of real note. That's just a fact of the matter. Beterbiev is going to hit him and hit him often. I'm sure Toney hits Betbiev often too. I wouldn't expect a one sided fight either way but I don't see anything in Toney's career to suggest he could beat Beterbiev in any way comfortably. He never showed that at any point.




I don't understand how you could make that assesment when he had one fight there to which he won a competitive decison against a fighter he never proved to be anywhere elite. That doesn't make any sense.




So how exactly do you differentiate between "unmotivated" and "motivated" Toney?

There is no difference. It's an excuse and nothing more.



It is totally unfathomable to me that you can watch someone's career with your own two eyes and form this insane opinion.

How could you possibly argue that Beterbiev is tailor made for Toney? The simple fact Beterbiev has a top quality jab alone debunks that because we know from countless amounts of footage that it's not difficult to hit Toney with a jab.

We also know that he he struggles with footwork/footspeed/in and out movement which Beterbiev brings to the table very well.

He's anything but tailor made for Toney, he has multilple tools and facets to his game that have shown to be extremely difficult for a Toney to handle.

Someone tailor made for Toney is someone who #1 isn't elite, and #2 is going to throw one punch at a time. Beterbiev is neither of those.




Am I in the twilight zone?

Beterbiev is elite, obviously.

He's the undisputed LHW champion of the world and one of the Top 5 P4P fighters in the entire sport. That is as elite as a fighter can possibly get.

To even compare him to the likes of Jirov is baffling.

Toney doesn't have a single clear/comfortable/dominant(whatever you want to call it) win over a Top level opponent, let alone an elite one.

It's easy to see unmotivated and motivated Toney, just as it was with Ali. Not that I'm putting To ey on that level, because he is not. He had the skills and potential to be an ATG. but he fell short of that because of a lack of discipline.

I think you're being very harsh by saying Toney got hit a lot. All fighters get hit. Toney's game was to let fighters throw at him make them miss and counter, and he was very good at it.



Jitov certainly doesn't have a strong resume, but he was the number one Cruiserweight for 3 years. His career may not have skyrocketed, but i think that has more to do with the state of the division at that time and not his skills etc.

Beterbiev is elite. And he is a p4p fighter as of just recently if im not mistaken. But in my opinion Toney is the worst style matchup he could have. I cant say hed win with any surety, its a fantasy fight. But looking at it stylistically it plays into James hands.

[QueensburyRules]

It's easy to see unmotivated and motivated Toney, just as it was with Ali. Not that I'm putting To ey on that level, because he is not. He had the skills and potential to be an ATG. but he fell short of that because of a lack of discipline.

I think you're being very harsh by saying Toney got hit a lot. All fighters get hit. Toney's game was to let fighters throw at him make them miss and counter, and he was very good at it.



Jitov certainly doesn't have a strong resume, but he was the number one Cruiserweight for 3 years. His career may not have skyrocketed, but i think that has more to do with the state of the division at that time and not his skills etc.

Beterbiev is elite. And he is a p4p fighter as of just recently if im not mistaken. But in my opinion Toney is the worst style matchup he could have. I cant say hed win with any surety, its a fantasy fight. But looking at it stylistically it plays into James hands.

- - TwoTon was a twotonpunching bag for fighters. His primary skill was getting hit and surviving as demonstrated in his last 10 years stumbling around punch drunk.

Boozo would've luvved U though as a fellow punchdrunk.

[JAB5239]

- - TwoTon was a twotonpunching bag for fighters. His primary skill was getting hit and surviving as demonstrated in his last 10 years stumbling around punch drunk.

Boozo would've luvved U though as a fellow punchdrunk.

Sure Queenie, whatever you say. Your opinions hold no weight on this forum or any other.