Michael Moorer top 20 all time heavyweight scenario

[Kid Cauliflower]

Ah! I have returned to our "Greb" debate. I shall once again attempt to help you lurch uncontrolling into the light.

1. Greb was feather fisted.

2. Only the February 1923 New York (MSG) fight (Tunney UD) was actually contested. The 1922 loss to Tunney was only contested by the Pittsburg press. That doesn't count.

3. Tunney gave Greb a December 1923 rematch and beat him with out contention.

That makes the record Tunney's way:

2-1-1-&1 (Contested Tunney victory.)

When a fighter wins the first fight and loses the rest, it is the latter fighter who was supIerior.

Ali was superior to Frazier. LaMotta won the second of his fights with Robinson, then Robinson won the next four. Robinson was the superior fighter.

Tunney was the superior fighter.

Greb was a MW and would have oly continued to lose to Tunney, as Tunney filled out.

Ever see Tunney in the Pre-fight photo for the first fight? Tunney wasn't what he would become. Greb got lucky to catch him that early, and to cut him that early.

Greb-Tunney 1922

grebtunneyinringbeforefigh.jpg

A 1927 Tunney standing up to a Dempsey rush.

699670_ab3e695f858c44e4947dafdc682f12da_mv2.jpg

That is the most sensible post in this thread by far.

[The D3vil]

But he is seen as a great lightheavyweight that was avoided by the best fighter that division had at the time. Had he retired after beating prime Evander there is no scenario that could propel him into the top 20 as an undefeated fighter and heavyweight champion?

I don't know if he was seen as a great light-heavyweight.

He didn't beat anybody great at LHW.

He held the WBO belt when it wasn't even recognized as the real belt by most people.

He didn't beat any ATGs or HOFs at light-heavyweight.

He beat an Evander Holyfield right before he retired with "heart problems".

Michael Moorer was a nice little fighter, but I doubt he'd be a top 20 fighter ever if he retires in say '92/'93.

[Bronson66]

Ah! I have returned to our "Greb" debate. I shall once again attempt to help you lurch uncontrolling into the light.

1. Greb was feather fisted.

2. Only the February 1923 New York (MSG) fight (Tunney UD) was actually contested. The 1922 loss to Tunney was only contested by the Pittsburg press. That doesn't count.

3. Tunney gave Greb a December 1923 rematch and beat him with out contention.

That makes the record Tunney's way:

2-1-1-&1 (Contested Tunney victory.)

When a fighter wins the first fight and loses the rest, it is the latter fighter who was supIerior.

Ali was superior to Frazier. LaMotta won the second of his fights with Robinson, then Robinson won the next four. Robinson was the superior fighter.

Tunney was the superior fighter.

Greb was a MW and would have oly continued to lose to Tunney, as Tunney filled out.

Ever see Tunney in the Pre-fight photo for the first fight? Tunney wasn't what he would become. Greb got lucky to catch him that early, and to cut him that early.

Greb-Tunney 1922

grebtunneyinringbeforefigh.jpg

A 1927 Tunney standing up to a Dempsey rush.

699670_ab3e695f858c44e4947dafdc682f12da_mv2.jpg

Feb 1922 Tunney at 174 1/2lbs was a big LHvy fighting a Greb who, at 162 1/2lbs was a middleweight.


Too much is made of Tunney's wins over Greb imo.Posters forget the weight differential.

Tunney was the superior Lhvy ,his natural weight. Greb was a natural middleweight.

When two fighters draw in the second to last of their series ,and one weighs175lbs and the other166lbs and the majority think the lighter man deserved the win.
Who is the superior fighter?
Two out of three Cleveland papers scored it for Greb (the other called it a draw).Stuart M. Bell from Cleveland Plain Dealer scored for Greb 6-3-1, the Massilon(Ohio)Evening Independent scored it for Greb;
Lima News (AP) called it a win for Greb, but reported that many ringsiders thought Tunney had the edge; Ray Coll in Pittsburgh Gazette-Times scored it a draw;
Zanesville Signal (INS wire) gave edge to Greb 5-4-1; Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune/Milwaukee Journal (United News wire) said newspapermen gave Greb "all but the tenth round"; Jim Jab from Pittsburg Press scored for Greb 7-3.


Level weights both prime who wins?

[JAB5239]

Feb 1922 Tunney at 174 1/2lbs was a big LHvy fighting a Greb who, at 162 1/2lbs was a middleweight.


Too much is made of Tunney's wins over Greb imo.Posters forget the weight differential.

Tunney was the superior Lhvy ,his natural weight. Greb was a natural middleweight.

When two fighters draw in the last of their series ,and one weighs175lbs and the other166lbs and the majority think the lighter man deserved the win.
Who is the superior fighter?
Two out of three Cleveland papers scored it for Greb (the other called it a draw).Stuart M. Bell from Cleveland Plain Dealer scored for Greb 6-3-1, the Massilon(Ohio)Evening Independent scored it for Greb;
Lima News (AP) called it a win for Greb, but reported that many ringsiders thought Tunney had the edge; Ray Coll in Pittsburgh Gazette-Times scored it a draw;
Zanesville Signal (INS wire) gave edge to Greb 5-4-1; Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune/Milwaukee Journal (United News wire) said newspapermen gave Greb "all but the tenth round"; Jim Jab from Pittsburg Press scored for Greb 7-3.


Level weights both prime who wins?

That was my point, Tunney was not Greb's master. Was he the better lightheavyweight? I would say so, he was a great fighter and the bigger man. But this (in my opinion) does not propel him to the upper a echelon of heavyweight greatness any more than Moorer should be there.

[QueensburyRules]

I don't know if he was seen as a great light-heavyweight.

He didn't beat anybody great at LHW.

He held the WBO belt when it wasn't even recognized as the real belt by most people.

He didn't beat any ATGs or HOFs at light-heavyweight.

He beat an Evander Holyfield right before he retired with "heart problems".

Michael Moorer was a nice little fighter, but I doubt he'd be a top 20 fighter ever if he retires in say '92/'93.

- - Ruined by Looney Teddy is what Happened.

[Willow The Wisp]

That my friend does not make him Greb's master, it only means he decisively won the last fight, just as Greb had decisively won the first, with 3 others closely contested.

Don't debate much, but always respectful of divergent opinion. We're all long aware of the nature of all four Tunney-Greb fights, their weights for those, and all the contemporary newspaper accounts, some of which are available on line, for cut & paste support of our ideas.

Greb 3 years older and more experienced, and as Tunney moved up Greb served as a good measuring rod for his progress; until Gene moved beyond him in size, in concert with ability. His master.

Eventuality, Tunney was ready to rule over the heavyweights. The last way I'll phrase it.

Never world champion at any division but Heavyweight, that's where historians rate Tunney.
Corbett, Burns, Charles get a somewhat similar treatment.
Historically.

Fan's may do otherwise without much impact on the ozone layer.

The Moorer/ Tunney thing? We ask how many of Moorer's opponents at 175 would become top 10 ranked Heavyweights to develop proper perspective.

[Bronson66]

Don't debate much, but always respectful of divergent opinion. We're all long aware of the nature of all four Tunney-Greb fights, their weights for those, and all the contemporary newspaper accounts, some of which are available on line, for cut & paste support of our ideas.

Greb 3 years older and more experienced, and as Tunney moved up Greb served as a good measuring rod for his progress; until Gene moved beyond him in size, in concert with ability. His master.

Eventuality, Tunney was ready to rule over the heavyweights. The last way I'll phrase it.

Never world champion at any division but Heavyweight, that's where historians rate Tunney.
Corbett, Burns, Charles get a somewhat similar treatment.
Historically.

Fan's may do otherwise without much impact on the ozone layer.

The Moorer/ Tunney thing? We ask how many of Moorer's opponents at 175 would become top 10 ranked Heavyweights to develop proper perspective.

Anyone is at liberty to rate any fighter where they choose.

I rate Tunney as top 3 at Lhvy, he doesn't make my Heavyweight rankings.because his resume is pitifully thin.That does not mean he would not beat some who do make my list, for example,I think Tunney would be a real handful for Louis .
Charles has more good wins at heavyweight than Tunney,Burns,and Corbett combined.

[Willie Pep 229]

Feb 1922 Tunney at 174 1/2lbs was a big LHvy fighting a Greb who, at 162 1/2lbs was a middleweight.


Too much is made of Tunney's wins over Greb imo.Posters forget the weight differential.

Tunney was the superior Lhvy ,his natural weight. Greb was a natural middleweight.

When two fighters draw in the second to last of their series ,and one weighs175lbs and the other166lbs and the majority think the lighter man deserved the win.
Who is the superior fighter?
Two out of three Cleveland papers scored it for Greb (the other called it a draw).Stuart M. Bell from Cleveland Plain Dealer scored for Greb 6-3-1, the Massilon(Ohio)Evening Independent scored it for Greb;
Lima News (AP) called it a win for Greb, but reported that many ringsiders thought Tunney had the edge; Ray Coll in Pittsburgh Gazette-Times scored it a draw;
Zanesville Signal (INS wire) gave edge to Greb 5-4-1; Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune/Milwaukee Journal (United News wire) said newspapermen gave Greb "all but the tenth round"; Jim Jab from Pittsburg Press scored for Greb 7-3.


Level weights both prime who wins?

Eh! Cleveland is down the road from Pittsburgh. Their metro areas almost connect. Ohio papers have the same anti-New York bias as the Pittsburgh papers. Always Greb, all the time.

Level weights is absurd. That's not the men they were.

If we are to make up scenarios I want one with equal hand speed. Now who wins?

[Bronson66]

Eh! Cleveland is down the road from Pittsburgh. Their metro areas almost connect. Ohio papers have the same anti-New York bias as the Pittsburgh papers. Always Greb, all the time.

Level weights is absurd. That's not the men they were.

If we are to make up scenarios I want one with equal hand speed. Now who wins?

I'm putting Tunney's wins into context,he was a Lhvy beating a middleweight.

[QueensburyRules]

I'm putting Tunney's wins into context,he was a Lhvy beating a middleweight.

- - A great LH beating a great Middle, both of whom crossed over and did well against heavies on occasion.