who the greatest middleweight of all time

[Yogi]

Heh, well there's no denying it. Take a prime Ray Robinson and put him up against any middleweight in history and I'd bet half my bank account he'd win it.

Robinson would definately be a hand full for any Middleweight in history, for sure. No argument from me to the contrary, as the man was just about the complete package with his amazing handspeed, precision powerpunching, great footwork, great balance, upperbody reflexes, great chin & heart, nasty killer instinct, etc., etc...Very nearly the complete & total package, and really the only thing that wasn't at the absolute elite level from what I see/saw, was his defensive skills (though still good comparitively speaking). He was hit a little bit more than what you'd think someone of his all-around ability would get hit, but hey...nobody's perfect.

[Gavilan1]

But what about Robinson's first career (for lack of a better term) at Middleweight when he was undefeated in close to or over sixty fights while weighing in within the Middleweight range?

A lot of people focus more on the mid/late 50's Robinson, who was past his best and was losing the odd one here and there, but I think more attention should be paid to what the Middleweight Robinson accomplished from about 1945 to 1952...There's quite a bit to be impressed about through these eyes, as like I said, he had that long undefeated stretch of about sixty fights (with wins against the likes of LaMotta x3, Adams, Belloise, Villemain, Basora, Olson x2, Delannoit, Turpin, Graziano, etc...there's some definate quality there) , with the only setback being a draw to Basora, which he later made up for with a first-round knockout.

To me, what Robinson did from '55 on was sort of like a bonus and, even though to me he could've stayed retired & been considered right up there for this division, I think that helps his overall legacy at this weight, even though he had won & lost the title a few times. I generally give a decent amount of credit to what a fighter accomplishes when he's past his peak, if he is actually accomplishing something special...which I certainly think Robinson did from the mid 50's on.

A quick browse of Robinson's record shows he had a total of about a dozen wins against fighters who were inducted into the IBHOF based primarily on their respective Middleweight accomplishments...Hagler?

Let's take a look at some numbers, Yogi.

As a middlweight pre 51'-55' Ray Robinson was 65-17-5. During the 51'-55' years He was 17-3-0. Sugar Ray Robinson was 30 before he began campaigning full time as a middleweight and he fought until he was 45 years old. Still, lopping off the last 10 years of his career and looking at only his first five as a middleweight, we see a distinct difference in the numbers. His dominance wasn't nearly what it was at welterweight, and that's a FACT. His power was down, and He wasn't nearly as dominating.

Sugar Ray Robinson's name will forever be linked with Hall of Fame fighters such as Basilio, Fullmer, LaMotta, Graziano and solid fighters like Turpin, Olson, Pender, Moyer and Downes. What can't be ignored though is that Robinson lost at least once to each of the men named with the exception of Olson. Robinson deservedly receives credit for beating these fighters. It must be acknowledged that they also beat him. Age was a factor no doubt, but his prime was at welterweight, not middlweight.
It is in my opinion, that in order to properly critically judge a fighter when we are doing all time rankings, we MUST go on a "who would beat who on that night" basis. Ray Robinson's prime wasn't at middleweight, it was at welterweight.

[Gavilan1]

Robinson would definately be a hand full for any Middleweight in history, for sure. No argument from me to the contrary, as the man was just about the complete package with his amazing handspeed, precision powerpunching, great footwork, great balance, upperbody reflexes, great chin & heart, nasty killer instinct, etc., etc...Very nearly the complete & total package, and really the only thing that wasn't at the absolute elite level from what I see/saw, was his defensive skills (though still good comparitively speaking). He was hit a little bit more than what you'd think someone of his all-around ability would get hit, but hey...nobody's perfect.

I want to read you a quote from the '97 Ring Almanac and get your reaction: "In a huge surprise, welterweight champion beats middleweight champion by split decision. Robinson unexpectedly fights flat footed, guaranteeing plenty of action. Basilio, spotting Sugar Ray 6 1/2 lbs., relies on his unparalleled conditioning and steel chin. The punches fly for all 15 rounds, with both fighters absolutely certain they deserve the verdict."

[Yogi]

Let's take a look at some numbers, Yogi.

As a middlweight pre 51'-55' Ray Robinson was 65-17-5. During the 51'-55' years He was 17-3-0. Sugar Ray Robinson was 30 before he began campaigning full time as a middleweight and he fought until he was 45 years old. Still, lopping off the last 10 years of his career and looking at only his first five as a middleweight, we see a distinct difference in the numbers. His dominance wasn't nearly what it was at welterweight, and that's a FACT. His power was down, and He wasn't nearly as dominating.

Sugar Ray Robinson's name will forever be linked with Hall of Fame fighters such as Basilio, Fullmer, LaMotta, Graziano and solid fighters like Turpin, Olson, Pender, Moyer and Downes. What can't be ignored though is that Robinson lost at least once to each of the men named with the exception of Olson. Robinson deservedly receives credit for beating these fighters. It must be acknowledged that they also beat him. Age was a factor no doubt, but his prime was at welterweight, not middlweight.
It is in my opinion, that in order to properly critically judge a fighter when we are doing all time rankings, we MUST go on a "who would beat who on that night" basis. Ray Robinson's prime wasn't at middleweight, it was at welterweight.

Gavilan (Jimmy?), it seems like you're ignoring the other Middleweight wins of Robinson's from pre-1950 because those numbers just don't look right to me. Now if a fighter is weighing above the Welterweight limit (i.e. Middleweight) and is fighting another fighter who is above the Welterweight (i.e. Middleweight), shouldn't a victory by Robinson under those conditions be considered a part of his Middleweight remuse? To me, yes it does and without question...If he's weighing 149/150 to 155 or so, and defeating Middleweights like LaMotta, Abrams, Belloise, Villemain, Basora, etc., etc., then yeah, Robinson is winning Middleweight fights, even though he's not competing in the division on a full-time basis. If he's defeating those guys while weighing within the Welterweight limit (like he did with LaMotta a couple of times) then yeah, I'll certainly agree that those accomplishments should go on his Welterweight ledger. But if he's weighing 150+ lbs and he's defeating quality Middleweights in the mid/late 40's...I'm sorry, that's all Middleweight accomplishments to me and I really don't see how you could think differently, my friend.

And that 17 and 3 record that you've come up with from 1951-55, one of those losses to Tiger Jones came immediately after his two and a half year retirement. Obviously Jones wasn't no all-time great, but he was a frequent TV fighter back in the day and I've seen a little of him in action. Just from what little I have seen of him, I'd say he was much more talented than his record would indicate (and he had some other top quality wins besides the one over Robinson), as he looked to have a decent amount of skills with that tricky "spoiler" style that he employed. From what I know of Tiger Jones, he always had somewhat of a 'hot and cold' streak in him...look very good for a fight or two, and not so good in the next one after. Robinson's loss to him may not look all that great on paper, but if Jones was having one of his "on" nights (couple with Robinson's comeback) then it doesn't look quite as bad to me.

And the other two losses you alluded to were to a couple of HOF'ers, Turpin & Maxim. I'm sure we've all seen the fight with Maxim, so no point on in going down that road, although I did think Robinson looked pretty spectacular for the first twelve rounds of the fight, as he completely befuddled Maxim with his footwork & hand speed (I had him winning all but two, maybe three of the rounds). Ah, give credit to Maxim for outlasting Ray in that one, but that was against the reigning Light Heavyweight champion, so again, I don't think the loss looks all that bad on Robinson's resume, especially considering how he fought in it. And the loss to Turpin...hey what can I say? I actually thought Turpin was a very good talent, who, if he hadn't gotten himself into so much trouble with all that legal **** on the outside (the guy was...not a nice man, I'll put it that way to be kind) and had kept his mind in the game, I think had the overall boxing talent to have a much, much greater career.

Three losses (or four counting the loss to LaMotta, when Ray was a Welterweight) by Robinson in his first 140 fights...hey that's not too bad, considering he had about half of those fights while weighing within the Middleweight limit.

And as far as Robinson's prime weight goes, he probably was slightly better at Welterweight than he was at Middleweight, but I personally think his "prime" years (43/44-51/52 or thereabouts) consisted of him splitting his time in both divisions. And hey, I've seen a little of Robinson fighting at Welterweight (about ten minutes of him against Fusari in '49 or '50, I think it was), and really don't see any noticable difference between that Robinson and the Middleweight version from around that time...Same fighter to me, basically, but to be fair, that was when Robinson was just about finished with the Welter ranks.

[Yogi]

I want to read you a quote from the '97 Ring Almanac and get your reaction: "In a huge surprise, welterweight champion beats middleweight champion by split decision. Robinson unexpectedly fights flat footed, guaranteeing plenty of action. Basilio, spotting Sugar Ray 6 1/2 lbs., relies on his unparalleled conditioning and steel chin. The punches fly for all 15 rounds, with both fighters absolutely certain they deserve the verdict."

My initial reaction was...I wished I had that complete fight, because I only have about two-thirds of it at the moment. I've always wanted to judge that one for myself, because from what I have the action between the two was very close and it appears like it could've gone either way (conjecture on my party though, considering...). They both had their moments from what I have, as Robinson started off by moving & boxing well from distance, but eventually Basilio started closing the distance better, forced some good exchanges & came on strong towards the end of the fight (Basilio's best moments being in the 11th or 12th round).

I really don't know what you're looking for, Gavilan, but here's a quote;

"If I were a betting man, I'd bet on Hagler. If I were a smart man, I'd bet on me."

[JMCbulls]

1.robinson
2.hagler
3.duran
4.leonard
5.monzon
6.lamotta

[ag512bbi]

Hagler

I really never watched too many Robinson fights so I really can't judge him.

[supaduck]

You should watch Robinson's fights, they were exciting.
Hagler rules too. He's my 2nd favourite middleweight.

[Gavilan1]

Yogi, You've clearly made your point, and I've made mine. We're going to have to agree to disagree here because I won't budge. Robinson was a greater p4p fighter, but He wasn't a better middleweight. That's just my opinion. I've clearly stated why I think so, and you clearly stated why you think Robinson was the better middleweight. At the end of the day, it's just a matter of perspective, and we are coming from different view points here.

Cheers for the debate.

[Yogi]

Yogi, You've clearly made your point, and I've made mine. We're going to have to agree to disagree here because I won't budge. Robinson was a greater p4p fighter, but He wasn't a better middleweight. That's just my opinion. I've clearly stated why I think so, and you clearly stated why you think Robinson was the better middleweight. At the end of the day, it's just a matter of perspective, and we are coming from different view points here.

Cheers for the debate.

Fair enough, Gavilan, and yes...Cheers!