If Lastarza Had Won The First Marciano Fight?

[Ivich]

Walcott was not an incompetent referee - no referee could have handled Ali/Clay that night. Walcott did exactly what he had to do.

Luston deserved a count, a count from the referee - it is very likely Liston couldn't hear the time keeper's count - he had a right to hear and see a referee counting over him.

Justice does not lie in a rigid adherence to the rules - that fight should have continued and that very ****** self promoting old man Nat Fleischer should have minded his own god damn business, i.e. making up stories to sell magazines.

If any rule should have been followed it should have been the DQ of Clay.

But that shouldn't have happened either. The Fight should have continued.

Walcott lost control of the fight and the fighters.Before a fight the first thing referee does is apprise himself of where the timekeeper is sitting ,he didn't.
After failing to get Ali to go to a neutral corner he should have picked up the count from the timekeeper he didn't. The time keeper asked Fleischer to get Walcott's attention,that he had counted Liston out. We have the timekeepers own version of events and it coincides with Fleischers,Under the Maine commisison rules the referee had the option to begin the count only after the man scoring it had retired to a neutral corner Walcott didnt do that. He never began a count of his own neither did he excercise his option to start a new count ,Incompetent.
Ali could justifiably have been disqualified but he wasnt so there was no rigid adherence to any rules.BTW IMO The last thing Liston wanted was for the fight to continue, he went into that ring wearing swimming trunks!

[Willie Pep 229]

Walcott lost control of the fight and the fighters.Before a fight the first thing referee does is apprise himself of where the timekeeper is sitting ,he didn't.
After failing to get Ali to go to a neutral corner he should have picked up the count from the timekeeper he didn't. The time keeper asked Fleischer to get Walcott's attention,that he had counted Liston out. We have the timekeepers own version of events and it coincides with Fleischers,Under the Maine commisison rules the referee had the option to begin the count only after the man scoring it had retired to a neutral corner Walcott didnt do that. He never began a count of his own neither did he excercise his option to start a new count ,Incompetent.
Ali could justifiably have been disqualified but he wasnt so there was no rigid adherence to any rules.BTW IMO The last thing Liston wanted was for the fight to continue, he went into that ring wearing swimming trunks!

You can see in the video that Walcott does in fact push Ali into a corner and start to move back towards Liston to pick up the count. Liston then proceeds to rise, but before Walcott can pick up the count Ali storms out of the corner towards Liston. Walcott abandons Liston, (who for some strange reason slumps back to the canvas,) and tries to push Ali back into the corner. Liston gets up.

Fight should have continued or Ali DQed.

A fighter deserves a referee count. If the rules are on your side in this argument, timekeeper and all that, then those rules are wrong. Justice was not served.

Embrace the fighters not the rules; they deserve a fair shake.

[QueensburyRules]

You can see in the video that Walcott does in fact push Ali into a corner and start to move back towards Liston to pick up the count. Liston then proceeds to rise, but before Walcott can pick up the count Ali storms out of the corner towards Liston. Walcott abandons Liston, (who for some strange reason slums back to the canvas,) and tries to push Ali back into the corner. Liston gets up.

Fight should have continued or Ali DQed.

A fighter deserves a referee count. If the rules are on your side in this argument, timekeeper and all that, then those rules are wrong. Justice was not served.

Embrace the fighters not the rules; they deserve a fair shake.

- - Most clear cut DQ short of Ali shooting JJoe dead can be found. Perhaps Uncle Roger storming the Vegas ring fighting Richard Steele trying to get at Zab Judah that precipitated a Ring Riot a modern analogy.

Ali was an amateur magician and anyone seeing him up close and personal in his prime days could see he had magical aurora about him. That and the ominous presence of NOI even in that backwater, white, remote rural enclave had a powerful, understated, nay incalculable influence on JJoe and the people around him in charge of the fight. Malcolm was still warm in memory.

[Willow The Wisp]

You can see in the video that Walcott does in fact push Ali into a corner and start to move back towards Liston to pick up the count. Liston then proceeds to rise, but before Walcott can pick up the count Ali storms out of the corner towards Liston. Walcott abandons Liston, (who for some strange reason slumps back to the canvas,) and tries to push Ali back into the corner. Liston gets up.

Fight should have continued or Ali DQed.

A fighter deserves a referee count. If the rules are on your side in this argument, timekeeper and all that, then those rules are wrong. Justice was not served.

Embrace the fighters not the rules; they deserve a fair shake.

A fair argument. Needless to say, the fight was a disaster.

[Willow The Wisp]

So we got Bob Baker and Nino Valdez. Damn dude, Marciano's management sucks for ducking these 2 guys then. Rocky should have pushed to fight these 2 guys to add to his legacy, like he did for the LaStarza rematch. Can't believe I never heard these guys mentioned in any Marciano bios I've seen. Since I'm a big Marciano fan, thanks for the heads up, guys.

These guys both deserved their shot, and having their names on his hit list would have pushed Marciano's legacy a bit further up, if that's even necessary. You have to remember a few things though:
1. Neither of these guys proved invincible while waiting.
2. Both would've been underdogs.
3. Unlike others who made tons of defenses, Marciano needed lots of recovery time to heal his cuts in between fights.
4. Charles, Walcott and even Lastarza were more marketable fights, and champions have to earn while they can, and its usually a very short window.
5. Marciano fought Moore, who simply proved better than the other two.
6. Marciano had to duck out in 55' because of problems with his back, and in hindsight, he did the right thing.
7. Marciano's greatness is based on conditioning, heart, power, resiliency and always comporting himself like a gentleman and a public hero, which he deserves to be remembered as. If failing to thoroughly clean out his era matters to you allot on top of all those other things, you're caught being too busy looking for something to criticize.

Just my two cents, for full balance.

[Ivich]

These guys both deserved their shot, and having their names on his hit list would have pushed Marciano's legacy a bit further up, if that's even necessary. You have to remember a few things though:
1. Neither of these guys proved invincible while waiting.
2. Both would've been underdogs.
3. Unlike others who made tons of defenses, Marciano needed lots of recovery time to heal his cuts in between fights.
4. Charles, Walcott and even Lastarza were more marketable fights, and champions have to earn while they can, and its usually a very short window.
5. Marciano fought Moore, who simply proved better than the other two.
6. Marciano had to duck out in 55' because of problems with his back, and in hindsight, he did the right thing.
7. Marciano's greatness is based on conditioning, heart, power, resiliency and always comporting himself like a gentleman and a public hero, which he deserves to be remembered as. If failing to thoroughly clean out his era matters to you allot on top of all those other things, you're caught being too busy looking for something to criticize.

Just my two cents, for full balance.

Neither Charles, Lastarza ,or ****ell had proven themselves invincible either.Charles had lost 2 of his last 4 Lastarza 1 of his last 2,and ****ell had been stopped by a lhvy and a middleweight.
Baker and Valdes both proved themselves better than Lastarza and ****ell imo.

Any of the top ten guys would have been an underdog against Marciano,sometimes underdogs win though. Ruiz Jnr , Bivol , Lopez Usyk, KambososJnr ,Haney.
It's my firm belief Marcianao would have fought anyone and that he would have been insulted if it was suggested he avoid a fighter,that does not mean his manager was as brave as he was!
Good post by the way.