If Lastarza Had Won The First Marciano Fight?

[Ivich]

Na! I don't trust Fleischer's rankings. Too high in the rankings too quickly with too many loses. Only to disappear almost as fast.

1952 - Not ranked
1953 - #1
1954 - #1
1955 - #5
1956 - not ranked

Between November 1952 through July 1956 he posted a record of 12-8-0, with wins over only Charles, Jackson, and ****well. With loses to Moore (2); Johnson; Satterfield; Machon (2).

Those #1 rankings don't smell right to me. Should have been ranked in the middle of the pack.

The IBC, besides taking a small piece from everyone: fighters, managers, venues, promoters, and broadcasters, from every card, had a side business of bringing in Latino fighters, first setting them up with quick high rankings and title shots, then robbing them when their popularity faded. Kid Gavlin (sp) was one of the more popular ones they used and abused.

I think Valdes' rise to number one was premature and questionable.

P.S. Charles likely got the first shot because he was a former (NBA) HW Champion with a victory over Louis. That will put asses in the seats.

Doubtful Valdes could do the same.

Just MO nothing more.

I'm referring to his time as the number 1 contender in53&54 , not what he did or did not do after he lost that ranking to Moore
Was Valdes rating any more questionable than Lastarza's or ****ell's?
He had after all beaten the number one contender in Charles.
As the victor over Charles, who was never a drawing card BTW, you don't think a 6'3"210lbs ****er would have drawn a good crowd to fight Rocky?

[Willie Pep 229]

London
McMurtry
DeJohn x2
Carter
Summerlin
Bethea
Holman
Erskine
Richardson
****ell
Jackson
Sys
Neuhaus
Agramonte
Lost to him
His manager Weill knew all about him and ,imo wanted no part of him.
Pity for Rocky really as I think he would have beaten Valdes and in doing so shown he could beat a big class guy who could punch.

Al Weill answered to Carbo and Palmero. They were all part of the Lucchese crime family.

It is why, in the end, Marciano's widow, Mary Ann got robbed by the gangsters who Rocky foolishly asked to hide his cash (mostly from Weill.)

I have this argument with everyone on this forum. You believe these "ducts" are based on fighters/managers being scared of a particular opponent, e.g. Johnson, Dempsey, Etc. But in reality there is usually a dozen other things at play, most often $.

Considering the time and circumstances the 'octopus' could just as easily robbed (probably easier) Valdes as they did Marciano.

As to whom Rocky fought, when and why, is probably lost to history, buried beneath a thousand other criminal acts.

[Anthony342]

London
McMurtry
DeJohn x2
Carter
Summerlin
Bethea
Holman
Erskine
Richardson
****ell
Jackson
Sys
Neuhaus
Agramonte
Lost to him
His manager Weill knew all about him and ,imo wanted no part of him.
Pity for Rocky really as I think he would have beaten Valdes and in doing so shown he could beat a big class guy who could punch.

Then it sounds like Rocky should have pushed for the fight himself. Like when Patterson insisted on fighting Liston.

[The Old LefHook]

Trying to get rid of a post.

[Willie Pep 229]

Then it sounds like Rocky should have pushed for the fight himself. Like when Patterson insisted on fighting Liston.

Patterson had to leave Gus D to make that fight - I don't think Weill, whom had a 50% lifetime contract with Marciano, had any intention of letting Rocky walk away.

Plus the IBC had strong influence over the NYSAC and control of most of the major venues. (Union houses; the IBC was a manager's union not a scantioning body.)

Plus I don't think that sort of thing is actually important to prize fighters. They just want to make money - it's hard to believe that these guys actually gave a rat's ass about their legacy. Which of course is the right way to think, not caring.

[Ivich]

Then it sounds like Rocky should have pushed for the fight himself. Like when Patterson insisted on fighting Liston.

I think it would dramatically have enhanced his historical standing.

[Ivich]

Al Weill answered to Carbo and Palmero. They were all part of the Lucchese crime family.

It is why, in the end, Marciano's widow, Mary Ann got robbed by the gangsters who Rocky foolishly asked to hide his cash (mostly from Weill.)

I have this argument with everyone on this forum. You believe these "ducts" are based on fighters/managers being scared of a particular opponent, e.g. Johnson, Dempsey, Etc. But in reality there is usually a dozen other things at play, most often $.

Considering the time and circumstances the 'octopus' could just as easily robbed (probably easier) Valdes as they did Marciano.

As to whom Rocky fought, when and why, is probably lost to history, buried beneath a thousand other criminal acts.

Marciano's wife's name was Barbara, Mary Ann was his daughter.Marciano didn't ask anyone to hide money for him,he hid it himself, not even telling his family where he put it!
I don't believe Marciano was ever scared of a prospective opponent,I do believe his manager did not want the Valdes fight, as he did not want either the 2nd Lastarza fight or the Mathews fight.

[Willie Pep 229]

Marciano's wife's name was Barbara, Mary Ann was his daughter.Marciano didn't ask anyone to hide money for him,he hid it himself, not even telling his family where he put it!
I don't believe Marciano was ever scared of a prospective opponent,I do believe his manager did not want the Valdes fight, as he did not want either the 2nd Lastarza fight or the Mathews fight.

Sorry about the name goof - I was referring to the William Nack article in SI. He states that Marciano had a gangster holding his money with the promise of giving it to his wife upon demise.

I know the story about the drain pipes and the paranoia.

Maybe both are true, maybe neither.

Again, I don't believe 'ducts' are that simple.

[Anthony342]

Marciano's wife's name was Barbara, Mary Ann was his daughter.Marciano didn't ask anyone to hide money for him,he hid it himself, not even telling his family where he put it!
I don't believe Marciano was ever scared of a prospective opponent,I do believe his manager did not want the Valdes fight, as he did not want either the 2nd Lastarza fight or the Mathews fight.

So I guess Rocky had a say in who he could fight. Sounds like it was his manager then. Too bad Marciano didn't go for Valdes then and listened to Weill to fight Charles.

[The Old LefHook]

Valdes lost four straight fights between November 1952 and May 1953. How the he'll did he get a #1 ranking? In 1952 he is not even in the top ten.

Yes he beat Charles but lost to every big name he met; lost to Moore twice.

His ranking looks questionable. His performances inconsistent and he is a foreigner.

NO DUCK on Marciano's part. The Fight wasn't there except in Nat's mind, likely not the public.

That Ring Ranking is questionable and doesn't alone get him to a title shot.

Do I smell Franki Carbo and Blinky Palermo and the IBC buying off that obnoxious old man Fleischer yet again?

Fleischer really was obnoxious, for instance the way he had Clay/Liston stopped.