Could Bowe circa 1992 handle a 1960 Sonny Liston

[markusmod]

I get what you are writing, rose tinted glasses of history and all. But 90s, old?! That hurts man.

Hurts me, too.

[Willie Pep 229]

I know what you mean. I started watching boxing in 1990, aged 6 or 7, by the time 1995 or so came around I considered myself a veteran boxing fan, when I was like 11/12. Time just flys by. I remember those days like yesterday, but I don't let nostalgia overrule reality like most people do. Today's standards are almost impossible for a boxer, it was so different in the past. Switch Mayweather's record with SRR in modern times and it gets picked apart. Fact. Nash out.

You're as prejudicial as the posters you complain about - and your opinion isn't a 'fact' - But I guess that makes you just one more self absorbed American.

And the third person crap . . .

[Nash out]

You're as prejudicial as the posters you complain about - and your opinion isn't a 'fact' - But I guess that makes you just one more self absorbed American.

And the third person crap . . .

Nash is like the Rock, he pulls it off, too many here take themselves too seriously. Also, Nash is English, not American. I know that my opinions are not facts, but they are worthy of respect. Nash out.

[billeau2]

I get what you are writing, rose tinted glasses of history and all. But 90s, old?! That hurts man.

People often are ignorant of what might be called "historical time." A very important process that takes a generation or so... History has a way of levelling the playing field, with a steady gaze. I find it funny how people sometimes react to this and assume history turns every pigeon into an eagle lol... No... History just has a nice large scope with which to see events that is always lost on the present.

When Tyson was Knocking everyone out people swore up and down that the heavyweight division had never seen such a force of nature. By comparison, Liston was quickly ushered into a dark place until recently when people started to notice that he got short shift.

I will say this again... Liston might be the most complete heavyweight that ever stepped in the ring. At his best he had no weaknesses and could do everything well. There will probably never be a fighter who has no bad outings on their record... Liston is no exception. But If God gave one the tools and said "design for me the best heavyweight you can, they would probably look something like Sonny. Big and strong, but not too big, long reach, psychologically menacing, great jab, combos, power punching, great footwork, great finisher, chin like granite, defensively able... Ibuechi might have been great as well, but we will never know.

[Ben Bolt]

Liston might be the most complete heavyweight that ever stepped in the ring. At his best he had no weaknesses and could do everything well. There will probably never be a fighter who has no bad outings on their record... Liston is no exception. But If God gave one the tools and said "design for me the best heavyweight you can, they would probably look something like Sonny. Big and strong, but not too big, long reach, psychologically menacing, great jab, combos, power punching, great footwork, great finisher, chin like granite, defensively able.

Whenever Liston is praised, I like it.
But I had very much wanted to witness the prime Liston vs the prime Bowe. Very uncertain of how the outcome would be.

[billeau2]

Whenever Liston is praised, I like it.
But I had very much wanted to witness the prime Liston vs the prime Bowe. Very uncertain of how the outcome would be.

We can never know for sure. But Bowe was mercurial at his best. A lack of consistency is never a good thing.

[markusmod]

Lets see if Bowe and beat Lamar Odum first

[them_apples]

Big Bowe who dealt Holyfield his first loss vs the Liston who crushed Williams and Folley and Harris. Bowe was the bigger man at 6'5 235 pounds vs Liston at about 6'1 212 lbs, although Liston seemed more muscular. But Bowe was bigger and better than anyone Liston ever beat. On the other hand, it can be argued that 1992 Holyfield was better than prime Liston. He was at the very least an equal tier of fighter as Liston.

eh Liston seemed stronger of the 2. just naturally. Bowe was kinda big had underated boxing skills. Bowe was never really a powerhouse though. I think its a good fight that Liston wins via decision or late round stoppage.

[them_apples]

People often are ignorant of what might be called "historical time." A very important process that takes a generation or so... History has a way of levelling the playing field, with a steady gaze. I find it funny how people sometimes react to this and assume history turns every pigeon into an eagle lol... No... History just has a nice large scope with which to see events that is always lost on the present.

When Tyson was Knocking everyone out people swore up and down that the heavyweight division had never seen such a force of nature. By comparison, Liston was quickly ushered into a dark place until recently when people started to notice that he got short shift.

I will say this again... Liston might be the most complete heavyweight that ever stepped in the ring. At his best he had no weaknesses and could do everything well. There will probably never be a fighter who has no bad outings on their record... Liston is no exception. But If God gave one the tools and said "design for me the best heavyweight you can, they would probably look something like Sonny. Big and strong, but not too big, long reach, psychologically menacing, great jab, combos, power punching, great footwork, great finisher, chin like granite, defensively able... Ibuechi might have been great as well, but we will never know.

All these guys got the same Tyson treatment just people forget. When they were on the scene they seemed unbeatable. It's also the promoters marketing the fighters. I don't believe humans have evolved at all in 50 years, thats total bull**** - and most athletic advancement in the olympics comes in the form of equipment changes which is unfair. Boxing has changed its rules very slowely, fighters fight less, gloves are slightly bigger but weight the same - fights are shorter and are stopped sooner. Fighters are private contractors and get paid more for taking easy fights. Marketing is key. Athletes can take their careers more seriously, where as fighters back in the day just fought and trained like it was a job and often didn't have money.

During the great depression boxing from a technical standpoint really evolved. There were no jobs available so gyms were loaded with fighters who would do anything to win. Fighting dirty was one thing but fighting smart was another. A lot of the skills lost in boxing were REAL skills, not just the skills the average pleb can admire on TV. Skills that only a professional can acknowledge, and a lot of them honed because fighters were allowed to fight a lot more. Fighters today are great at training but not great at fighting. They slip punches and counter but ONLY vs an oponent they could beat even without that. In a sense its fake skills.

Why did Canelo just follow Floyd around flat footed and not land a single punch? its because he doesn't actually have half as much real skill as people think. He has pretty moves that make him look good while knocking out guys like Billy Joe. And no its not because he was totally green, he looked great against all the guys he fought before that.

Liston actually has real skills though, he throws all his shots smooth so you cant read him, his jab has no tell and he uses a lot of micro feints like a seasoned pro.

James Toney said it best when he made his run at heavyweight. They said he was too small at 5 ft 9 and fat. And he said, "fighters today lack heart and determination, and thats all you need".

[billeau2]

All these guys got the same Tyson treatment just people forget. When they were on the scene they seemed unbeatable. It's also the promoters marketing the fighters. I don't believe humans have evolved at all in 50 years, thats total bull**** - and most athletic advancement in the olympics comes in the form of equipment changes which is unfair. Boxing has changed its rules very slowely, fighters fight less, gloves are slightly bigger but weight the same - fights are shorter and are stopped sooner. Fighters are private contractors and get paid more for taking easy fights. Marketing is key. Athletes can take their careers more seriously, where as fighters back in the day just fought and trained like it was a job and often didn't have money.

During the great depression boxing from a technical standpoint really evolved. There were no jobs available so gyms were loaded with fighters who would do anything to win. Fighting dirty was one thing but fighting smart was another. A lot of the skills lost in boxing were REAL skills, not just the skills the average pleb can admire on TV. Skills that only a professional can acknowledge, and a lot of them honed because fighters were allowed to fight a lot more. Fighters today are great at training but not great at fighting. They slip punches and counter but ONLY vs an oponent they could beat even without that. In a sense its fake skills.

Why did Canelo just follow Floyd around flat footed and not land a single punch? its because he doesn't actually have half as much real skill as people think. He has pretty moves that make him look good while knocking out guys like Billy Joe. And no its not because he was totally green, he looked great against all the guys he fought before that.

Liston actually has real skills though, he throws all his shots smooth so you cant read him, his jab has no tell and he uses a lot of micro feints like a seasoned pro.

James Toney said it best when he made his run at heavyweight. They said he was too small at 5 ft 9 and fat. And he said, "fighters today lack heart and determination, and thats all you need".

FANTASTIC POST... Very well honed insights! Could not agree more. Heres the sad thing. You can relate to this because you have perfected your game boxing. I spent years perfecting my martial arts skills. You need that experience fighting. You also need to work in weak areas. You see so many fighters today that obviously do not do this. And you also see this attitude where people just do not look at tape! Its fine to measure a fighter on wins, titles, etc. But tape tells us so much. To me one measure of fighters is how the average fighter looks at the time. You see fighters from certain times and what they do in the ring... Then you can look at what a great fighter does as well. Liston is one of my favorite guys to watch on tape because he is so technically sound, does so many things well, and is imo the perfect size for a heavyweight.