Scottie Pippen: LeBron Greatest Ever

[Konstantin]

I find it interesting in the entire history of the NBA 90% of the titles have been won by 4-5 teams.

I think this is very interesting because it puts the ring count part of players in a better light. Lets face it, some teams are never going to rings. Why? It's not because the players, it's because the management is not any good. The Cavs are not going to win a championship in the next 20 years. Why? Because their management fcking sucks.

Orlando is not going to win a championship, but it's not because Dwight Howard is not one of the top 5 players in the NBA, and it's not because he's not a winner or not clutch. It's because he's playing for a team with ****ty management. I have to laugh off people who put out the rings argument. Kobe and MJ would not have won any championships if the best player their team could get them was Antawn Jamison.

[Tamis!]

I find it interesting in the entire history of the NBA 90% of the titles have been won by 4-5 teams.

I think this is very interesting because it puts the ring count part of players in a better light. Lets face it, some teams are never going to rings. Why? It's not because the players, it's because the management is not any good. The Cavs are not going to win a championship in the next 20 years. Why? Because their management fcking sucks.

Orlando is not going to win a championship, but it's not because Dwight Howard is not one of the top 5 players in the NBA, and it's not because he's not a winner or not clutch. It's because he's playing for a team with ****ty management. I have to laugh off people who put out the rings argument. Kobe and MJ would not have won any championships if the best player their team could get them was Antawn Jamison.

That's why I hope Dallas wins this year for a little boost for Mark Cuban, and finally giving Jkidd and Dirk a ring.

[Tamis!]

What????????

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

Yes, that's why they continued to win.

A) Ask anyone objectively. Scottie Pippen is on of the top 50 players in NBA history. Period.

B) The rest of the league had no super dominant team, so yes, the Bulls were able to win play off games.



Blah, blah, blah.

Just admit the Bulls had a *very, very* good team around their best player.

*JUST ADMIT IT*



Let's focus on basketball and not conjecture about the "character" of the men. Jordan had bad character too, he was graced to not live in the internet age of knowing everything about everyone.

NBA players do not lose 30 games in a row if they deserve to be in the NBA. That tells you the simple truth.

That team did not have the role players (aka John Paxton, BJ to hit threes, strong fowards aka Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen, a rebounding machine aka Dennis Rodman, etc, etc)

The brought so many people in and out of cleveland it was ridiculous. Shaq, Wallace, etc. They didn't keep a unit together and develop the players roles around the leader and they *didn't get a second prime superstar* which is what you need in the NBA.

Yes or No. 9 of the last 10 Championship teams had 2 superstars *at least* on their teams. HOF players. And additional all-stars.

That's why it is funny *Jordan hating on Lebron for getting with other superstars*



??????? This is what Jordan said.

Hello! You had Scottie Pippen on your team!!!

Bosh is Larry Bird? Magic? Are you kidding me?

And Bird and Magic??? When Jordan started finally winning championships, Bird and Magic were well past their prime on the downside.

Fact is the Bulls had 2 superstar HOFers, and the Heat do as well. Bosh is a good all-star, which the Bulls also had.

Jordan is a hater.

I see your enthusiasm, but like I said in my earlier post, the bigger picture isn't that hard to see.

You'll have a point with all those HOF'ers you quoted if the 2004 Detroit Pistons team didn't win the championship.

It's not always who'se in the team...

[Tamis!]

I'm out FTM.

In the meantime Lebron has a looong way to go...

[Stromprophet]

Kobe and MJ would not have won any championships if the best player their team could get them was

It's really interesting considering the "salary cap"

Basketball though, has a different business model than football.

Bottom line, without multiple superstars and the management to get them and keep them there, you're not winning championships.

I'm from Indiana, and the Pacers were very good for a very long time. We had excellent management, Walsh, Bird as a head coach, etc. But we only ever had 1 superstar. Just not enough.

We were close, Jaylene Rose came very close to becoming the second superstar we needed. Other than that we always got role players or superstar vets on the downside (Mark Jackson, Chris Mullins).

You really have to have that second superstar and consistent all-stars to get over that hump.

[Stromprophet]

I see your enthusiasm, but like I said in my earlier post, the bigger picture isn't that hard to see.

You'll have a point with all those HOF'ers you quoted if the 2004 Detroit Pistons team didn't win the championship.

It's not always who'se in the team...

That's why I said 9 of 10.

The reason they won was the Lakers were breaking apart. If the pistons played the Lakers in any of the previous seasons, they would not have won. But you had Kobe in trouble with the Law, and him also selling out Shaq.

The pistons had great team chemistry, 5 legitimate starting all-stars (though no clear superstar), and 4 of those guys had been together for a long time.

But that still speaks to my point. They had 5 starting all-star caliber players. Rip Hamilton, Teshan Prince, Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace, and Chauncy Billups.

[hhs661]

It was a vague statement.

He was saying it's possible Lebron may be the best NBA player ever.

Jordan has already been defending the notion, calling out Lebron for "getting with other superstars" .....................*Which has to be one of the most laughable statements of the past year.....*

Let me see.....

A) Jordan played with Scottie Pippen. Pippen is one of the top 50 players in the NBA all time. SOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...........what's wrong with Lebron getting with other superstars?

Give me a break. Oh, and Dennis Rodman to get the 72 win season. Hmmmmmmmmm.

Yeah MJ played with Pippen but when in the hell do you remember them actually getting together during the off-season to bring that team in. What Chicago did was trade for Pippen, while these guys went out of their way to form this team. Jordan and Pippen didn't exchange texts, emails, phone calls or hang out to make this happen. They didn't decide to take the easy way out. As far as Rodman goes, Everyone was thinking bringing him to Chicago was a bad idea because he was labeled a cancer, rebel and a horrible team mate. The only guy that really wanted him their was Phil Jackson. The rest was literally history.

(And it's nonsense that Jordan made Scottie a HOF. Look at Jordans career assist numbers. While Jordan certainly drew defenses, he usually took the shot and allowed other players to play their roles)

B) Lebron carried a nothing team to an NBA final and 4 eastern conference championships.....*By himself* ------------

Let's rewind. The teams of Jordans day were weaker. Period. What "Superstar" teams were there? By the time 91 came around, the Celtics and Lakers were fading. And no other team was comparable to some of the superstar teams today.

The Knicks? Rockets? Jazz? Etc, etc. There were "good teams" but no superstar teams.

Tell me one team (besides the Bulls, who had 2 HOFs, and all-stars on the roster) in the 90s that was a real superstar team? Ala...

Let's start with your last sentence.. A team with 2 HOFers?? How about the Utah Jazz. Stockton and Malone. Stockton is arguably a top 5 pg and Malone is easily the best or 2nd best PF to ever play the game. Jordan and the Bulls beat them twice. Are you going to tell me that Payton and Kemp weren't superstars too? Don't think of the Kemp that left to Cleveland, had about 12 kids, and became overweight.

Try and remember the Kemp that was hanging his nuts on defenders while he dunked over them. Then you got Clyde Drexler and Terry Porter, Barkley and Kevin Johnson in Phoenix, Magic & Penny in Orlando and possibly more. But i'll leave this one at that for now. Don't give me that "what superstar teams' were their in the 90s, cause that era was far superior(especially in the Eastern Conf) to the teams that were in the East before this season. Give me the Knicks, Heat, Pacers, Hornets, Magic over the 00's decade of the Sixers, Nets, Pacers, Magic, Bulls etc etc... It's not even laughable anymore.

By 91, the team in the East to beat were the Pistons, who were the back to back champions. Chicago did so. It's called a process of elimination. It started with the Celtics, went to Detroit and finally Chicago came once they got their team chemistry together.

2000-2003 Lakers, 2 HOFs + Allstars, 2000-2007 San Antonio, Several HOFs + Multiple Allstars, Lakers again with again multiple superstars and HOFs players, Celtics, Multiple superstars and HOFs. The only team in the last 10 years to even win a Championship without multiple HOF players was the Detroit Pistons.

They had the right team mix and were able to beat an uncommitted Lakers (they were falling apart).

The *Whole Point here in B* --- Jordan never carried the Bulls to a finals series by himself against a league with the concentrated talent at the top. Never. He had another HOFer with him from the beginning (and didn't even win a championship till he was 30+).

What in the hell are you posting about with these paragraphs here? Jordan played against tougher teams in a tougher conference. Lebron taking the Cavs to the ECF 4 years in a row is something we should congratulate him for? There wasn't talent at the top when Lebron was doing this? In the 80s and 90s the "talent" was spread out all over the leauge. In the 80s it was mainly in Boston and LA, but Philly, Detroit and even Chicago had their fair share of talent. Milwaukee had talent and so on and so forth. Jordan didn't have Pippen til the 88 season when he was a Rookie. They didn't start winning their titles til Pippen was in his 3rd full season. Lebron didn't team up with Wade and Bosh that early. He's on Wade's squad while all of them in their prime. The Bulls were young, hungry and actually winning by bringing their pieces together and not forming a team over the off-season. Chicago went through growing pains and eventually found their team chemistry and put it all together. Lebron bailed out and joined forces to take the easy way out. Big difference homie.

C) Notice when Jordan quit in 94 how good the Bulls remained....

Uh.........they not only made the playoffs still, they won series. So it's kind of obvious the supporting cast was good.

Let's look at Cleveland. Best regular season record the last 2 years. He leaves. 2nd worst record in the league, break the all time losing streak at 30 games or however many they lost in a row.

They won a series and then do you remember Pippen doing this? By 94, Pippen was in his prime, Chicago had most of their core pieces back and the chemistry was still there. It wasn't like he gave up and the Bulls destroyed and rebuilt their team once again.

D) Why not say that the Celtics players from the 50s, and 60s are the best ever? If the argument is about having Championships.

Some people do believe that. Why do you think you hear guys like Wilt and Russell being talked about as two of the greatest to ever play. However a league filled with 8 teams at the time doesn't help your case.

E) Statistically these guys are pretty close.

Jordan was a better FT shooter, one reason why he has a higher PPG. Jordan also averaged more steals.

However, Lebron averages almost 2 more assists a game, and 1 more RPG, and is a better 3 point shooter.

You can use his assists and rebounds all you want, but let's go to the steals per game, FG%, turnovers per game, bpg(even), ft%.. I guess you wouldn't use those to go along with the ppg average since Jordan edges Lebron out in those categories. Oh well though. Categories that involve points and defense are all in Jordan's favor.

_________________

It's certainly early. For all we know Lebron could get injured and not finish his career. So how about we see where the seasons take him.

IMO, He did what he should have done a long time ago. It was a mistake to sign the extension in Cleveland. He could have been with a better team for years.

The Bulls were extremely Lucky to be able to get two young HOFs and keep them together into second contracts, and even then it took 7 years to get a Championship.

Playing with other Superstars is the only way to win Championships. Jordan did it. Lebron is seeing the benefits now.

Yeah, you never know what could have been if Lebron would've left instead signing that extension. Just like we never know what could've been if Jordan wouldn't have retired after the 1st 3-Peat. But, When Pippen and Jordan joined forces, it took them 4 season(I believe) not 7 to start winning. They were green, young and raw at the time. They actually had to brew themselves into a championship team. Unlike Lebron, he went to team up with 2 guys who are in their prime to try and duplicate what Jordan has already done in terms of winning championships.

Trust me though, If everyone knew that Pippen would be a top 50 player by the time his career was done, then do you really think the Sonics would've traded him for Olden Polynice?? be real here.

[sigrab]

Now you know why there were rumors going around since the last few yrs they were playing together that Scottie resented Jordan and was jealous of all the attention being directed towards him.

Scottie was just waiting for the right time to **** on MJ.

To even hint, at this moment that Lebron is greater than MJ is just pure blasphemy.

Pip hated being referred to as "The Sidekick."

And this is his own way of saying "**** Michael Jordan!"

[Stromprophet]

Yeah MJ played with Pippen but when in the hell do you remember them actually getting together during the off-season to bring that team in. What Chicago did was trade for Pippen

They got him his first year in the NBA. Lucky...yes or no? My point is. Those guys were together a long time, both HOFers. So Jordan has no room to talk about how it's "wrong for superstars to get together to win championships"

while these guys went out of their way to form this team.

You're ignoring what is required to win a championship in the NBA currently. How is it wrong for these guys to want to get together?

The only teams winning Championships are built with multiple superstars and multiple all-stars.

Let's start with your last sentence.. A team with 2 HOFers?? How about the Utah Jazz. Stockton and Malone. Stockton is arguably a top 5 pg and Malone is easily the best or 2nd best PF to ever play the game. Jordan and the Bulls beat them twice. Are you going to tell me that Payton and Kemp weren't superstars too?

Uhhhh...Kemp was vastly over rated. Fact. And second, Gary Payton? How big was he really? Let's compare him to say John Stockton or Jason Kidd who have proven/proved more effective for much, much longer.

Let me see....the Indiana Pacers that year took Chicago to 7 games (and almost won in game 7). With only 1 real superstar. The Sonics managed to get 2 games when Chicago was being Lazy.

I will admit The Jazz did have 2 superstars and HOFers (so did the Rockets, Hakeem and Clyde the Glide). But the only other effective player they had was a future HOFer suffering much more downside age in Jeff Hornacek. Who did they have to build around those guys?

My point is. The Utah Jazz of the 1990s were not as good as about every single team that has won a championship in the 2000s. Again, Chicago was the only super team of the era.

Today you have a few super teams in the 2000s competing for championships. *YES OR NO*?


Don't think of the Kemp that left to Cleveland, had about 12 kids, and became overweight.

Try and remember the Kemp that was hanging his nuts on defenders while he dunked over them. Then you got Clyde Drexler and Terry Porter, Barkley and Kevin Johnson in Phoenix, Magic & Penny in Orlando and possibly more. But i'll leave this one at that for now. Don't give me that "what superstar teams' were their in the 90s, cause that era was far superior(especially in the Eastern Conf) to the teams that were in the East before this season. Give me the Knicks, Heat, Pacers, Hornets, Magic over the 00's decade of the Sixers, Nets, Pacers, Magic, Bulls etc etc... It's not even laughable anymore.

Terrible. Not hard to see why you think the Mavs will win this series despite very obvious reasons why they won't.

I'm a huge Pacers fan cause I lived there. But none of those teams are as good as the 2000s, Celtics, Lakers (2 generations), SA. *NONE* You're high as a kite if you think they were.

What in the hell are you posting about with these paragraphs here? Jordan played against tougher teams in a tougher conference.

Doubtful. The Detroit Piston team then was not any better than the 2004/2005 pistons. Which I consider to be the least of the championship teams from the 2000s.

Again, aging lakers, aging celtics, and if you want to get picky the pistons were on the downside as well.

In the 80s and 90s the "talent" was spread out all over the leauge.

It's pretty obvious that in the 80s that Boston and LA had the very elite talent no matter how it was spread in the league. And by the 90s one time had that very elite talent.

You're making my point for me. The talent was spread more evenly in the 80s and 90s meaning that the teams who could secure the most of the best would have a huge advantage.

Jordan didn't have Pippen til the 88 season when he was a Rookie. They didn't start winning their titles til Pippen was in his 3rd full season.

It was his 4th season. *Full season*.....Uh...Pippen played 79 games off the bench his first season. Does that not count?

Lebron bailed out and joined forces to take the easy way out.

He's at the exact same point when Jordan won his first championship. Easy way????

He gave Cleveland 7 seasons. Did you see them make the progress the Bulls did in securing the right pieces to win? That would be a no. Cleveland acquired no true role players and kept them there. Every piece they added they got rid of or were impatient about. If there was a top 50 all time player on that team with Lebron....

YA THINK! (Duh, Pippen is top 50 all time, Lebron has never, ever played with a prime top 50 all time player)

Clevelands management is terrible. Period. If the right pieces were there to win a championship, he wouldn't have left.

By 94, Pippen was in his prime, Chicago had most of their core pieces back and the chemistry was still there. It wasn't like he gave up and the Bulls destroyed and rebuilt their team once again.

My point was really simple. The Bulls had a very good team around Jordan. Cleveland never had even a mediocre team around James. (After 7 years too), so why are you hating on him going to where he can win?

That is no ones fault but the coaching and management. You cannot blame him for them not putting a team around him built to win.

You can use his assists and rebounds all you want, but let's go to the steals per game, FG%, turnovers per game, bpg(even), ft%.. I guess you wouldn't use those to go along with the ppg average since Jordan edges Lebron out in those categories.

James is a better defensive player. Beyond just steals and blocks (stats). If you didn't see that in the series they just played, you're blind. Jordan was not a shut down defensive player and you can go over the stats of shooting guards who played against him and see that.

Derrick Rose managing 30% shooting tells you something.

I hope this isn't your argument.

BPG? You must be misreading the lines. They both average 0.8 BPG in their careers. 49.7% career vs 47.9% career, *I already said he averaged more steals per game....you just gonna repeat me?* 1.7 to 2.35, Jordan averaged more fouls, 2.73 TO to 3.33, 83.5% FT to 74.4% (again, as I said, and contributory to the PPG difference).

2 Rebounds per game more is huge. It's 2 possessions of difference. Far more than having 0.6 more steals a game.

Having 1 more assist per game is also 2 points more for your team.

I grew up on Jordan. He did not have stifling defense, he had opportunistic defense. What James just displayed on Derrick Rose, Jordan *never did*, I watched Reggie Miller play Jordan for years, and years in the east and he never shut him down a whole series like we just saw.

Oh well though. Categories that involve points and defense are all in Jordan's favor.

Or not...as I just showed. Rebounds do involve points....*DUH, DUH, DUH* how do you think teams score without possession of the ball?

They actually had to brew themselves into a championship team.

How are you failing to see this easy point?

They wouldn't have been able to grow themselves into anything without the Bulls *ACQUIRING* Pippen and the complimentary components.

Cleveland never drafted or traded to draft a single effective player to go with Lebron and never groomed effective role players around him and keep the team from massive turnover of players.

He was there 7 years. What do you propose he does? Stay there and waste his prime years not getting a championship?

[el malo]

They got him his first year in the NBA. Lucky...yes or no? My point is. Those guys were together a long time, both HOFers. So Jordan has no room to talk about how it's "wrong for superstars to get together to win championships"

pippen was not a "superstar" when chicago got him, he was a rookie
lebron, wade and bosh were all stars(or superstars whatever you want to use) when they got together. looks like you lost this arguement lol.