Should boxers who test positive for illegal drugs be allowed into IBHOF?

[ADP02]

Answer these questions:

Who was the lead promoter for this fight?

Who pays for Pac's VADA testing?

Was Lance not destroyed by USADA?

As the other poster said...this is boring. Your other goons already ran away. You aren't too bright, are you?

Bright one, answer me this question. Those who helped out Lance Armstrong, did they protect everyone else? Nope, just the top guy.

Lance was a top European athlete as that is where cycling is big and was protected there .... Lance was paying mostly people from there. USADA was not big or a concern at the time until the USA investigators handed them information .... it wasn't because USADA caught Lance with PEDs testing after a race .... bla bla bla ....

Floyd is a top athlete in boxing and where his reps have paid USADA. USADA's jurisdiction is in the USA and Floyd helped USADA get in the door as far as boxing is concerned .... they forged a relationship but there was no relationship like that with Lance Armstrong, bright one!

[ADP02]

Most Pacquiao fans right?

Wrong on that too ... even Floyd fans and others would agree on that. Most people know that is the case.

[Raggamuffin]

Wrong on that too ... even Floyd fans and others would agree on that. Most people know that is the case.

Stop lying to posters

[ADP02]

Stop lying to posters

Start researching

[Raggamuffin]

Start researching

Nah, you can say I told you so when **** hits the fan in the future!

[soul_survivor]

Should boxers who test positive for PEDs or use illegal IV injections to clear out PEDs be admitted into the IBHOF?

James Toney

Roy Jones Jr

Antonio Tarver

Erik Morales

Vitali Klitschko (amateurs)

Floyd Mayweather Jr (illegal IV injection)

I don't think they should but we have to be clear about the context of each case. Toney was caught stone cold, dead to rights. Jones however took an over the counter supplement which was not initially banned in boxing.

Again, with Vitaly, it was the fault of the boxing commission in the Ukraine, where he specifically asked them if the medication he was taking after his injury was allowed and they said yes, turned out it contained banned substances. Plus the amateurs don't have a bearing on the pro game anyway.

With Mayweather, it is largely speculation (backed up by a lot of evidence and dodgy dealings but nothing was ever outright proven or made public) so again, context is important.

As much as I hate to say this, Morales shouldn't be in the hall of fame though.

[travestyny]

Bright one, answer me this question. Those who helped out Lance Armstrong, did they protect everyone else? Nope, just the top guy.

Lance was a top European athlete as that is where cycling is big and was protected there .... Lance was paying mostly people from there. USADA was not big or a concern at the time until the USA investigators handed them information .... it wasn't because USADA caught Lance with PEDs testing after a race .... bla bla bla ....

Floyd is a top athlete in boxing and where his reps have paid USADA. USADA's jurisdiction is in the USA and Floyd helped USADA get in the door as far as boxing is concerned .... they forged a relationship but there was no relationship like that with Lance Armstrong, bright one!

Deflecting you say?

Did you answer even one of the questions I posed? You spend as much time talking about Lance as you do about Mayweather. That's just ******ed.

Mayweather Promotions paid for extra testing, just as Top Rank paid for VADA testing. The NSAC is NOT going to pay for extra testing. Seems the promoters usually pay for the testing. Since Mayweather Promotions was the lead promoter, it makes sense that Mayweather Promotions paid for the testing. This is common sense.

So again...who was supposed to pay for this extra testing? Been waiting for you to let me know this answer.

Once again, you keep bringing up Lance Armstrong and the situations are not even parallel at all.

1. Lance Armstrong's activities were ILLEGAL according to the UCI rule book. I already showed you that. None of Mayweather's activities were illegal.

2. If you think the only information that USADA had on Lance was from investigators, then you haven't researched this matter enough. I suggest you do so, so that you stop giving false information. Here, I'll help you get started.

From USADA:

The evidence of the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team-run scheme is overwhelming and is in excess of 1000 pages, and includes sworn testimony from 26 people, including 15 riders with knowledge of the US Postal Service Team (USPS Team) and its participants’ doping activities. The evidence also includes direct documentary evidence including financial payments, emails, scientific data and laboratory test results that further prove the use, possession and distribution of performance enhancing drugs by Lance Armstrong and confirm the disappointing truth about the deceptive activities of the USPS Team, a team that received tens of millions of American taxpayer dollars in funding.


3. Who helped VADA get in the door, and do you accuse that party of paying off VADA?

You're not getting anywhere. Stop ducking the questions, or just run off like the rest of your crew.

[travestyny]

I laugh every time you deflect back to this ..... not just because you deflect but because you do not say the above to yourself when all you are doing is speculating with nothing to go by when it came to Manny's FULL THICKNESS ROTATOR CUFF TEAR. They had the doctor who operated on Manny confirm .... but you prefer a no-name Floyd pretend doctor and what he wrote on the paper but we both know who the doctor was that Floyd thanked. Dr Alex Ariza!!! What a joke!!!!

1. I don't have medical records for Pacquiao. Neither did the NSAC. Wonder why they wouldn't show the MRI, because what we do know is that he claimed to be of normal strength going into the fight (statement from his team and from his doctor), he showed no sign of the injury in the fight, he didn't rehab like a person who had this injury after the fight. If you've not been able to follow along with the reasons that you lost that poll, well then, maybe you should pull your head out of Pacquiao's ass. Besides all of that, if he went into the fight at normal strength, then nothing really matters. No excuses. He lost. Plain and simple.

2. Floyd Mayweather passed 19 drug tests, I believe it was. His samples were tested by independent laboratories. His TUE was approved by an independent TUEC. The application and reasons for the TUE, which was required to be thorough enough for the TUE to be accepted without even examining him directly, was sent to WADA.

So let's recap. Pacquaio has the word of one doctor (I won't send you the 15 or so quotes you posted about doctors lying) stating he had a full-thickness rotator cuff tear, and Mayweather has a bevy of doctors at the laboratories who tested his anonymous samples, at least 3 independent doctors on the TUEC, and the application with reasoning for the TUE being granted sent to the World Anti-Doping agency.

Let me remind you that pacquaio paid his doctor. That seems important to you. Ready to give up now?

What does that have to do with what I said! Floyd had all day to urinate but instead delayed and pretended that he couldn't even though he should have been able to after he drank the fluids.

Floyd likes to bet on basketball. Right after the weigh-in he sometimes goes over to the casino to bet on a basketball game. He shouldn't have been allowed to delay with that excuse.

hahahaha. This was good for a laugh, I admit. How is it relevant? You said he didn't urinate all day? Do you know when he gave the partial sample, or does that not count as urinating? If you don't know when it was given, how can you claim he didn't urinate all day?

Where are you getting this information about him betting on a basketball game on May 1st? I'm just saying? Why not post up what you found to make your accusations stronger. Did he go to a casino, or did he make a phone call? That would also be appreciated if you can add that in.

Then you must be "one dumb mutha****er" since you have in the past tried to defend Floyd's words!!!


Seriously, that is what Floyd said but now you are admitting that its all BS. If it was Manny that said that, you would burn him to the stake with whatever Manny said. Even when Manny clarifies, its not good enough for you. Yet for Floyd, you need to make up your own speculations even though Floyd told you! Urine, blood and exercise.

What most people think, is that the story is all BS. This is a guy, Floyd, who admits to making weight easily so there was no reason.

From urine to blood to needing the IV and getting a TUE. ALL BS and if it was someone else's name (not Floyd), you would been on my team agreeing and calling the guy out and you know it! You would be calling out those who defended, moronic or dumb for believing!

I don't have to defend him. The information is out there. Training makes athletes dehydrated. This is not rocket science. You don't have any information on if he was running up until the fight, do you? You don't know what he was doing. Only speculation. Giving blood and losing urine also contribute, as I've pointed out to you, but it's clear that this is not the main cause. You are just taking one small tidbit of the whole equation and hugging onto it. That's beyond idiotic. No one took his statements about giving blood and urinating contributing to his dehydration and claimed this meant he was not dehydrated. Again, your expert that you pulled out of your ass said he may have been dehydrated, so why don't you just concede.

Floyd was not doing no heavy duty exercise on the day before a fight called "Fight of the century" in which would dehydrate to the point of requiring an IV ..... Only if your "one dumb mutha****er" would you even think that!!!
Like I said, I dehydrate and rehydrate way more than a few pounds each day and for about 5-6 times a week for many months at a time when I'm training. So I know when I see BS. You are just trying to save Floyd's asz but it smells!

Dude, no one cares about your workouts. Just STFU about that. Was De La Hoya doing heavy duty exercise? If you weren't there with Floyd, then you are speculating. No one is even arguing that he had to have been doing heavy duty exercise. What he had to do was maintain weight until the weigh-in.

Floyd said what he had. He was dehydrated a few pounds. Experts say to just drink 600-700ml and you are FULLY REHYDRATED and that is what we saw Floyd do so Floyd was already FULLY REHYDRATED!!! Or like FLoyd said, drink Pedialyte!

Being dehydrated (due to urine, blood, exercise - all occurring on previous days) a few pounds is nothing. No IV was required. Case closed!!!

Did he have any condition that made IV rehydration more effective than drinking water? Did De La Hoya drink water? Would it have been enough? Independent labs who tested him found nothing. The TUEC approved. WADA did not interfere. I think you are outgunned.

Oscar more than likely lost muscle mass and it weakened him. No hydration would help Oscar at that point. On the other hand, Floyd admits to walking at 147-150 for a decade so there would be no reason to require an IV to regain from that devastation called giving urine, giving blood,...

but but but....what happened to checking the 30 day weights????? De La Hoya was 143 a full month before the fight.

Plus we have actual information on Floyd from 30 days out to his vital signs just before the IV. All normal and stable!

Same with Oscar

How can Floyd be extremely dehydrated when his weight is stable for 30 days!

What? How can it be? How can it be, Oscar??? lol

The proof is all there.
1) Floyd was weighed in from 30 days out up to just before he received the IV. Floyd's weight was stable. Right?

What? Oscar? How can it beeeee?

Floyd's own testimony , the prefight form, and NSAC physician results, vital signs and weight being stable for 30 days is more than enough evidence.

More than enough evidence? But Oscar.... howwww???

Plus there is proof. Check his 30 day, 2 week, 1 week and weigh in day just before the IV. Floyd's weight is stable.

Stable weight, you say? 143 a month out. 145 at weigh-in. 147 on fight night. What gives, Oscar?

- We had Floyds weigh in stats for the last 30 days. Floyd was as stable of an athlete as one can get.

We have Oscar's stats. As stable as an athlete can get. lol

Are you ready to give up on your stable weight and rehydration criteria? Let me remind you that Oscar was 150 for the previous fight. So what's up, man? 143 a month before the fight. Stable. If you disagree, then you are contradicting yourself a wholeeee lot, aren't ya?

I have Floyd's own words. He said why he was dehydrated. urine, blood and exercise. Is that what Floyd was doing before the IV? NO, NO and NO!!!

Why are you hugging onto this one statement so much? This is sad. You've never explained why this couldn't have been chronic dehydration. You simply said, "He didn't have that." What he is explaining to you, if you weren't such a biased ass, is that training leading up to the fight, along with giving urine and blood, contributed to his dehydrated state. And once again, you have no idea what he does right before the fight, so stop speculating.

BTW - Oscar's trainers blamed it on the sparring partners that were let go and Nacho confirmed that Valero was let go. According to them, Ortiz and Edwin Valero (southpaws) were giving Oscar lots of problems during sparring. So they let them go which was a wrong decision .....

Look, you asked for information about someone from his camp stating that the problem was otherwise. I came through and gave it to you, didn't I? So why are you including this information?

Hauser said all that. He was giving examples of how an athlete can easily manipulate levels by masking/manipulating.
"There are two ways to determine the presence of synthetic EPO in an athlete’s system. The first is a urine test that directly determines its presence. The second way to test for synthetic EPO is a hematocrit blood test. This test doesn’t directly measure the presence of EPO....."

Again, these are examples of .....

The point is Hauser was wrong. His calculations were wrong. He claimed 750ml can decrease hematocrit from 55% to 47%. That is blatantly wrong. It would take about 3 liters to do that. He has no idea what he is talking about. And again, Floyd wasn't even required to take a blood test on this day, so discussing him trying to manipulate his blood is pure ******ity. He took the blood test the next day, and 750ml would not effect the blood test over 24 hours later. I think you know that.

I explained (see my first statement in that post - DCO/LAB)) but will make it clearer. The DCO could have passed the SG test but the LAB may have failed it for either being too dilute or for some other reason such as having illegal substance such as Clenbuterol which should have been found since it is a banned substance that is found in IV bags!

What's the point of writing this? The lab may have failed it??? The lab DIDN'T fail it. It was an independent lab and the lab had no way of identifying whose sample it was as according to WADA protocol. If the sample fails, WADA is notified. There was simply no reason to fail the sample. More speculation from you.

Now you're saying Clenbuterol SHOULD HAVE been found???? lol. What are you smoking???? Please stop embarrassing yourself!!! Once again, the TUE would not allow him to test positive for a banned substance. If there was a failure, the lab would have to IMMEDIATELY send that result to WADA. You are being ridiculous, man. Seriously.

"If the presence, Use, Possession or Administration of the Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method is inconsistent with the terms of the TUE granted, the fact that the Athlete has a TUE will not prevent an ADRV finding."

Floyd could have even done a blood transfusion or something else beforehand and concerned that the test would have shown traces of illegal substances(I gave example) but now that test is NULL and VOID thanks to USADA.

Floyd should have had higher than normal levels of Clenbuterol but with the RETRO TUE, USADA didn't report any of that.
.

You have gone full ******.

[ADP02]

Deflecting you say?

Did you answer even one of the questions I posed? You spend as much time talking about Lance as you do about Mayweather. That's just ******ed.

Mayweather Promotions paid for extra testing, just as Top Rank paid for VADA testing. The NSAC is NOT going to pay for extra testing. Seems the promoters usually pay for the testing. Since Mayweather Promotions was the lead promoter, it makes sense that Mayweather Promotions paid for the testing. This is common sense.

So again...who was supposed to pay for this extra testing? Been waiting for you to let me know this answer.

Once again, you keep bringing up Lance Armstrong and the situations are not even parallel at all.

1. Lance Armstrong's activities were ILLEGAL according to the UCI rule book. I already showed you that. None of Mayweather's activities were illegal.

2. If you think the only information that USADA had on Lance was from investigators, then you haven't researched this matter enough. I suggest you do so, so that you stop giving false information. Here, I'll help you get started.

From USADA:

The evidence of the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team-run scheme is overwhelming and is in excess of 1000 pages, and includes sworn testimony from 26 people, including 15 riders with knowledge of the US Postal Service Team (USPS Team) and its participants’ doping activities. The evidence also includes direct documentary evidence including financial payments, emails, scientific data and laboratory test results that further prove the use, possession and distribution of performance enhancing drugs by Lance Armstrong and confirm the disappointing truth about the deceptive activities of the USPS Team, a team that received tens of millions of American taxpayer dollars in funding.


3. Who helped VADA get in the door, and do you accuse that party of paying off VADA?

You're not getting anywhere. Stop ducking the questions, or just run off like the rest of your crew.

There is a difference. As far as boxing is concerned, Floyd got USADA in the door and has paid them since 2010. They forged a relationship where USADA knows at one point in time, they would have to return the favor. This was it! With Top Rank, there is not that, not even close.

1. Technically similar.
- Lance first used the steroids due his supposed medical condition and after the race and after the fact, showed them the medical file which included a prescription from his doctor. So he had his RETRO TUE.
- Floyd first used the IV due his supposed medical condition and after the fight and after the fact, showed them the medical file which included a note from his doctor. So he had his RETRO TUE.

- BOTH made up excuses to get their RETRO TUE. Actually, Lance's excuse was more believable than Floyds in that if you are on the saddle for long periods at a time such as the Tour de France, a rash can very well occur. Floyd's excuse do not make sense and are flat out lies! Giving urine or blood 10 days before would have NOTHING to do with his supposed dehydration on May 1st. Start with agreeing with that and you are on your way with finding out the truth. Floyd had also tapered off his workouts as most would expect. Well, anyone but a few die hard Floyd fans.


"Damagingly, the report infers that the 1999 cortisone episode was common practice, as the UCI “appeared to have a policy of accepting backdated prescriptions and to be lenient in applying the rules on the****utic use exemptions [TUEs]. The practice was justified by arguing that, from a health perspective, it made little difference whether the prescription was provided before or after testing....."

The above sounds similar to Floyd's RETRO TUE. Floyd didn't have the paper work ready for 3 weeks and Dr Alex Ariza couldn't have signed it officially as a doctor. So USADA approved saying the justification excuse can come 3 weeks later ... it made little difference .
Floyd's IV use was not justifiable nor should have qualified for a RETRO TUE but USADA did not care about meeting full compliancy of the WADA Code. No need to dot the "i" and cross the "t". Rubber stamp that RETRO TUE ....


2. They had a lot of information beforehand ..... and what was the most damaging was the testimony of his teammates. The test results may have been thrown out for several reasons as pointed by the UCI ... but so what. Lance was a PEDs user. He delayed getting tested, used IVs, representatives paid off the UCI and others and what Lance did was thrown under the rug.

but the most interesting about all this is, USADA was patient and took their time gathering all that evidence but what about Floyd? No investigation. Floyd sent in the request about 3 weeks later and snap, USADA rubber stamps and gives Floyd the approval right away. No checks, no investigation, no nothing. How come?
So I stand corrected. There is a difference between Lance and Floyd. Floyd had the easy path, Lance didn't as far as USADA goes. Lance should have paid USADA from the start to shut them down like Floyd did.


You called it illegal to get the medical documents for Lance after the fact. Well, that is what happened with Floyd. The WADA approved LABs had more than likely already found out that Floyd had used an IV. So Floyd had no choice but to request for that RETRO TUE and for USADA to approve, after the fact.




3. Answered above ....

[travestyny]

There is a difference. As far as boxing is concerned, Floyd got USADA in the door and has paid them since 2010. They forged a relationship where USADA knows at one point in time, they would have to return the favor. This was it! With Top Rank, there is not that, not even close.

Man, just stop. This is ridiculous. He paid them for drug testing, as have other boxers and promoters have done in the past. Second, it's pure SPECULATION that USADA felt they needed to "return the favor." What the hell are you basing that on. I used to respect you, though I've always known you are nothing more than a butt hurt Pac fan, but everything you post now shows how desperate you are.

1. Technically similar.
- Lance first used the steroids due his supposed medical condition and after the race and after the fact, showed them the medical file which included a prescription from his doctor. So he had his RETRO TUE.
- Floyd first used the IV due his supposed medical condition and after the fight and after the fact, showed them the medical file which included a note from his doctor. So he had his RETRO TUE.

- BOTH made up excuses to get their RETRO TUE. Actually, Lance's excuse was more believable than Floyds in that if you are on the saddle for long periods at a time such as the Tour de France, a rash can very well occur. Floyd's excuse do not make sense and are flat out lies! Giving urine or blood 10 days before would have NOTHING to do with his supposed dehydration on May 1st. Start with agreeing with that and you are on your way with finding out the truth. Floyd had also tapered off his workouts as most would expect. Well, anyone but a few die hard Floyd fans.


"Damagingly, the report infers that the 1999 cortisone episode was common practice, as the UCI “appeared to have a policy of accepting backdated prescriptions and to be lenient in applying the rules on the****utic use exemptions [TUEs]. The practice was justified by arguing that, from a health perspective, it made little difference whether the prescription was provided before or after testing....."

The above sounds similar to Floyd's RETRO TUE. Floyd didn't have the paper work ready for 3 weeks and Dr Alex Ariza couldn't have signed it officially as a doctor. So USADA approved saying the justification excuse can come 3 weeks later ... it made little difference .
Floyd's IV use was not justifiable nor should have qualified for a RETRO TUE but USADA did not care about meeting full compliancy of the WADA Code. No need to dot the "i" and cross the "t". Rubber stamp that RETRO TUE ....


2. They had a lot of information beforehand ..... and what was the most damaging was the testimony of his teammates. The test results may have been thrown out for several reasons as pointed by the UCI ... but so what. Lance was a PEDs user. He delayed getting tested, used IVs, representatives paid off the UCI and others and what Lance did was thrown under the rug.

but the most interesting about all this is, USADA was patient and took their time gathering all that evidence but what about Floyd? No investigation. Floyd sent in the request about 3 weeks later and snap, USADA rubber stamps and gives Floyd the approval right away. No checks, no investigation, no nothing. How come?
So I stand corrected. There is a difference between Lance and Floyd. Floyd had the easy path, Lance didn't as far as USADA goes. Lance should have paid USADA from the start to shut them down like Floyd did.


You called it illegal to get the medical documents for Lance after the fact. Well, that is what happened with Floyd. The WADA approved LABs had more than likely already found out that Floyd had used an IV. So Floyd had no choice but to request for that RETRO TUE and for USADA to approve, after the fact.

It's not similar AT ALL. Floyd had USADA's DCO with him before having the procedure done, plus he gave a partial urine sample before the procedure. Even Hauser already gave up on this bull**** about him being caught with the IV. Once again, it makes no sense for USADA to help him manipulate his blood levels when he wasn't taking a blood test! USADA was there before the IV and was well aware that HE WASN'T TAKING A BLOOD TEST. Your speculation makes no sense! The urine sample was still required to pass the specific gravity test, so it could not have been diluted, the independent TUEC approved of the retroactive TUE, and the independent lab found no positive results. The application and reason for approving the TUE were sent to WADA who obviously found nothing wrong. There was no anti-doping rule violation or any adverse analytical finding. And as you are well aware of by now, RETROACTIVE TUEs ARE A STANDARD PART OF WADA'S ISTUE. That shuts you down, so just give up.


Lance Armstrong blatantly lied and blatantly broke UCI's rules. I've already showed you this:



Not only was he supposed to reveal the use of his corticosteroids, but it wasn't allowed for him to present the prescription after the test at all because of his failure to reveal the use and submit the prescription BEFORE the test.

You are beyond annoying at this point. Floyd really ruined your life.

If you would like to head over to WADA's ISTUE document and point out what rule Floyd broke with regards to getting a retroactive TUE, that would be the way to go. Until you provide that, you might want to think about giving up.