Why So Much Praise For The "If Only" Fighters: (Toney, Judah, Khan, etc.)

[-PBP-]

It's pretty hard to have both insane athleticism and insane ring IQ. Guys like that are the exceptions to the rule. More often then not these extremely athletic and fast guys neglect certain expects of their profession because for large chunks of their career, they don't actually need em because they can easily compensate for those weaknesses with speed/agility/reaction time.

The saying "there's no substitute for speed" comes to mind. It takes an insane amount of discipline to knuckle down and work on both in equal measure. Even greats like Pernell and Mayweather did A LOT of unorthodox things that would get anybody else KTFO if they tried em. Roy Jones only started paying for that **** when he got old, otherwise his entire career was a conglomorate of what could qualify as suicide moves yet he never paid for it while he was in his prime.

I think when you are a dangerous counterpuncher like all of the fighters you listed, and your opponents have tons of tape to study you and your tendencies, you have to do unorthodox things to set traps effectively, force them to lead, and create counter punching opportunities.

[Sledgeweather17]

man i've been battling british casuals about khan since the start of his career. almost every punch that ever put him on the floor would've levelled ****ing margarito as well. his chin is not the (main) problem, it's the fact that he can't seem to avoid being hit by monster haymakers

Tell me, had Khan taken the shot that Mayweather took like a boss from Pacquiao in round 4, would Khan still be alive, much less stood his ground like Mayweather did?

Tell me, isn't the punch that hurt Mayweather in round 2 of his fight with Mosley EXACTLY THE SAME as the one that Canelo caught and KO'd Khan with?

Don't come here with that ish here mayn! Khan has a weak chin, period!

[DreamerUSA]

It looks like I'm putting them all into one bucket but I understand Toney is leagues above the other two in terms of accomplishments. That's not really where I was trying to get at.

I just see a lot of people saying that James Toney could have been among the greatest of all time if he was more disciplined. I don't agree with that because when I look at his losses, I don't see how discipline would have changed the outcome of those fights. Maybe in the extreme circumstances like the loss to Drake Thadzi. But against the likes of Roy Jones, Montell Griffin and others, it was a matter of skill; not discipline.

And that's where the comparison to Khan and Judah come in. They're losses aren't about "what if". The reason that they are what they are is because of the skills they lack.

Well I'll certainly agree about Roy lol. Not so much on Griffin, especially the first fight. The first fight was just a couple months after Toney lost to Roy and was supposed to be a nice little come back fight that I would argue he took lightly and it back fired in his face. He had also for years prior to that had weight issues, fighting up as high as the 180's. Basicly after he fought McCallum the second time the guy never kept himself in shape. A guy who if disciplined could of stayed at 160-68, for many years, was fighting as a LHW/CW. That is huge when talking your stamina, speed and reflexes. Again it is all speculation and we can agree to disagree.

Still lumping him in with two guys whose best 3 wins could'nt match even one of Toney's best wins, I don't agree with. Toney is a what if guy, but it is a matter of ranking him higher on an ATG list.

[Fists_of_Fury]

There's a new Toney thread every week. They are even saying he's a greater fighter than Hopkins.

Hopkins is vastly overrated himself. Using illegal tactics that some ****s call veteran tactics. He cherry picked without being called on it. And his resume isn't all that impressive. Flopping in multiple fights to try and get out of a loss too lol. The age factor seems to overshadow everything. The way he acted when asked about testing too... atg better than Floyd doe

[boliodogs]

Others may praise them but I don't. I go by what they actually did in the ring and not by what somebody thinks they might have been able to do if only. In fairness to Toney he did lots of good and great things in the ring but he often skipped the training part of boxing.

[jreckoning]

Toney and Judah were champs at times. I think they get beat up a little too much as underachieving. Judah was a 2 division champ, Toney was a 3 division champ both in a slightly less watered down world.

Yes, they didn't live up to their potential but overall their resumes are not as bad as people make out visa vis their actual ablitlites.


People criticize them a ton.

[NYC8224]

Hopkins is very overrated. Why people blow him, i'll never know

[soul_survivor]

If only James Toney was more disciplined, he would be one of the greatest fighters of all time.

If Only Zab Judah wasn't a mental midget, he would have been an all time great fighter.

If only Amir Khan can avoid the big punch for 12 rounds, he would have won.


These types of sayings happen so much that people actually start to believe the bull****. Why is at that these fighters losses get written off as "mental lapses" rather than flaws in their game? Do people actually watch the fights or do they just repeat what they hear on an Ellie Sechback video?

When you look at James Toney's fights, he excelled against fighters that came to him. His performances against Iran Barkley, Evander Holyfield, John Ruiz, Samuel Peter (yes he was robbed), Vassily Jirov were magical. But when he fought guys that showed a little movement, had an effective jab and made him lead, he wasn't so great. It took him 24 rounds and he still couldn't figure out Montell Griffin and often struggled with below average opposition.

Zab Judah had a combination of power, handspeed and timing that made even the most knowledgeable boxing heads drink the Kool-aid at times. But he lost every big fight he was in. He looked the part at times and was the last undisputed welterweight champion which is a great accomplishment. But he wasn't a very smart fighter and it showed every time he stepped up in class.

And Amir Khan is the funniest of the bunch. People fall in love with his handspeed but ignore how he backs up in straight lines and is as good as useless on the inside. But when he loses, it's always "if only his chin held up". There's not many fighters that would remain standing after a lot of those shots that KO'd Amir Khan.

I'm not questioning the talent of these fighters. They are all world class fighters, became unified champions and had tremendous accomplishments. Respect to all of them.

But can we stop pretending that their losses weren't due to anything other than being flawed fighters? And accept them for what they are.

Toney was a multi-time, multi-weight world champ. Dunno why you think he is an if only kinda guy. Same goes for Judah.

Khan is probably a more pertinent choice but then again, he is unified champ with one of the best current resumes under 30.

[soul_survivor]

Hopkins is very overrated. Why people blow him, i'll never know

Overrated how? One of the longest middleweight streaks ever, wins over legitimate atgs, skillful, smart, resilient, possibly a top 3 all time chin, lineal middleweight champ and 2 or 3 time lineal light heavyweight champ often beating guys 10-15 years younger than him.

What more do you want from a fighter?

[LoadedWraps]

It looks like I'm putting them all into one bucket but I understand Toney is leagues above the other two in terms of accomplishments. That's not really where I was trying to get at.

I just see a lot of people saying that James Toney could have been among the greatest of all time if he was more disciplined. I don't agree with that because when I look at his losses, I don't see how discipline would have changed the outcome of those fights. Maybe in the extreme circumstances like the loss to Drake Thadzi. But against the likes of Roy Jones, Montell Griffin and others, it was a matter of skill; not discipline.

And that's where the comparison to Khan and Judah come in. They're losses aren't about "what if". The reason that they are what they are is because of the skills they lack.

A lack of discipline means less focus in the gym, less attention to your defecits as a fighter. It absolutely indirectly affects your performance in the ring, and I am one of those who firmly believe Toney, like Oscar, caused his own early downfall and losses due to a lack of discipline, and that with his gift and skillset he could certainly go down as one of the greatest of all time.

Don't confuse a lack of discipline in the ring (dropping hands at dangerous times, lazy footwork, porous defense) with a lack of discipline to your craft.