Why So Much Praise For The "If Only" Fighters: (Toney, Judah, Khan, etc.)

[IronDanHamza]

Does Toney really excell against fighters that come to him?

Dave Tiberi came to him, beat him easily.

Drake Thadzi came to him, beat him easily.

Merqui Sosa came to him, lost a close one.

James Toney excels when he fights sub par fighters who stand infront of him doing nothing. That's the only time I've seen him excell.

[dan_cov]

Fantastic post & funnily enough I was thinking of Zab Judah in the James Toney thread.

He is one of the very first fighters that come to mind who you could make look tremendous in highlight reels and he had a good career but still he lost everytime he stepped up and there was always a lot of excuse making for him.

[IronDanHamza]

Fantastic post & funnily enough I was thinking of Zab Judah in the James Toney thread.

He is one of the very first fighters that come to mind who you could make look tremendous in highlight reels and he had a good career but still he lost everytime he stepped up and there was always a lot of excuse making for him.

Broner is a better example for me.

Reminds me a lot of Toney.

Obviously a worse version of Toney.

[Kagami Taiga]

Broner is a better example for me.

Reminds me a lot of Toney.

Obviously a worse version of Toney.

Lol I remember is arguing about Broner's potential...you were right about that one, no question.

[IronDanHamza]

Lol I remember is arguing about Broner's potential...you were right about that one, no question.

Broner's got talent. Just little skill.

I don't recall our argument though ha.

[DreamerUSA]

Not sure id put Toney in this, but people often overrate fighters who are athletically/physically gifted but lack ring IQ.

I agree about Toney. He cracks most top 100 ATG list I've seen. Really what I think people like myself argue is that he could of been a top 25 atg rather than a lower end top 100, but it is obviously speculation.

I get where PBP is coming from, especially when people try to argue that Toney was greater than B-Hop, which is a joke imo, but he also does'nt deserve the shelling he gets from some posters that pretty much think he was trash. You don't have the kind of career he did without being a great fighter. Sure he struggled with people he should'nt have and yes he won a couple fights that as far as I'm concerned he lost, but that does'nt wash away what the man accomplished in the ring.

[-PBP-]

I agree about Toney. He cracks most top 100 ATG list I've seen. Really what I think people like myself argue is that he could of been a top 25 atg rather than a lower end top 100, but it is obviously speculation.

I get where PBP is coming from, especially when people try to argue that Toney was greater than B-Hop, which is a joke imo, but he also does'nt deserve the shelling he gets from some posters that pretty much think he was trash. You don't have the kind of career he did without being a great fighter. Sure he struggled with people he should'nt have and yes he won a couple fights that as far as I'm concerned he lost, but that does'nt wash away what the man accomplished in the ring.

It looks like I'm putting them all into one bucket but I understand Toney is leagues above the other two in terms of accomplishments. That's not really where I was trying to get at.

I just see a lot of people saying that James Toney could have been among the greatest of all time if he was more disciplined. I don't agree with that because when I look at his losses, I don't see how discipline would have changed the outcome of those fights. Maybe in the extreme circumstances like the loss to Drake Thadzi. But against the likes of Roy Jones, Montell Griffin and others, it was a matter of skill; not discipline.

And that's where the comparison to Khan and Judah come in. They're losses aren't about "what if". The reason that they are what they are is because of the skills they lack.

[NEETzsche]

man i've been battling british casuals about khan since the start of his career. almost every punch that ever put him on the floor would've levelled ****ing margarito as well. his chin is not the (main) problem, it's the fact that he can't seem to avoid being hit by monster haymakers

[Derranged]

Lmao... No, he wasn't robbed against Samuel Peter, Sam won both times fair and square.

The first decision stunk, Toney won 8-4.

[Sledgeweather17]

Not sure id put Toney in this, but people often overrate fighters who are athletically/physically gifted but lack ring IQ.

It's pretty hard to have both insane athleticism and insane ring IQ. Guys like that are the exceptions to the rule. More often then not these extremely athletic and fast guys neglect certain expects of their profession because for large chunks of their career, they don't actually need em because they can easily compensate for those weaknesses with speed/agility/reaction time.

The saying "there's no substitute for speed" comes to mind. It takes an insane amount of discipline to knuckle down and work on both in equal measure. Even greats like Pernell and Mayweather did A LOT of unorthodox things that would get anybody else KTFO if they tried em. Roy Jones only started paying for that **** when he got old, otherwise his entire career was a conglomorate of what could qualify as suicide moves yet he never paid for it while he was in his prime.