Mayweather's IV injection (Master thread)

[Rath]

According to Hauser who got many other things factually incorrect. I'll call bull**** unless you have an actual source/evidence to the contrary.

i think it was on the USADA response to hauser thread check it out

[ganthet]

From reading news articles, USADA said that Floyd informed then in advance about the IV. Now, it's USADA observed Floyd's condition that lead to the IV at his home. Now, there was a paramedic that did the procedure.

Since a paramedic was called in, how come they did not bring him to the hospital .

There is a video that shows Floyd drinking water after the weigh in. As an experience fighter with 47 fights, he should have re-hydrating after the weigh in.

Exactly. When Paramedics rush to your house, it is always an emergency situation and the only real purpose for them coming is to rush you quickly to the hospital.

But you know what the most ******ed thing out of all this is? Why does this "paramedic" thing just come out now? Not one of Team Froid ever mentioned about any paramedic before. Not Froid, not Ellerbe, not anyone on his team. Hell, not even Sr mentioned anything of the sort. Not to mention how impossible it is that there wouldn't be one leak about the "paramedic" story that ever came out before. The paramedic story was obviously FABRICATED.

Paramedic and stuff??? What the hell are they talking about??

Do Floyd and Ellerbe sound like they're explaining it was a big emergency?? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Listen! So many LIES

LMAO first time I saw this video. So Team Froid was trying to play the IV infusion as something normal that fighters do when fighters get dehydrated. They also were blaming the blood tests along with the training on why Froid became weak and dehydrated. Really? Someone who has been training and fighting for this long still doesn't know how to handle and prepare against dehydration? Are they really this dumb to think that rational people will buy that? Even dumbass Ellerbe says it was nothing out of the ordinary.

Fast forward a few months later, and we now get a Paramedic added to their story to make it seem like an emergency case LMAO!!!!!!!!!! Not to mention that it's impossible to believe that not one of them remembered to mention that before, and it's even more hard to believe that there wasn't any news that leaked about a Paramedic rushing to his house LOL

[Rath]

Exactly. When Paramedics rush to your house, it is always an emergency situation and the only real purpose for them coming is to rush you quickly to the hospital.

But you know what the most ******ed thing out of all this is? Why does this "paramedic" thing just come out now? Not one of Team Froid ever mentioned about any paramedic before. Not Froid, not Ellerbe, not anyone on his team. Hell, not even Sr mentioned anything of the sort. Not to mention how impossible it is that there wouldn't be one leak about the "paramedic" story that ever came out before. The paramedic story was obviously FABRICATED.



LMAO first time I saw this video. So Team Froid was trying to play the IV infusion as something normal that fighters do when fighters get dehydrated. They also were blaming the blood tests along with the training on why Froid became weak and dehydrated. Really? Someone who has been training and fighting for this long still doesn't know how to handle and prepare against dehydration? Are they really this dumb to think that rational people will buy that? Even dumbass Ellerbe says it was nothing out of the ordinary.

Fast forward a few months later, and we now get a Paramedic added to their story to make it seem like an emergency case LMAO!!!!!!!!!! Not to mention that it's impossible to believe that not one of them remembered to mention that before, and it's even more hard to believe that there wasn't any news that leaked about a Paramedic rushing to his house LOL

check post no. 1706

[SamuraiSam]

I was educating so many people last night regarding this subject the rules are becoming 2nd nature. Let me elaborate the out of context malicious propaganda of what people like to enjoy and cherry pick.

The retroactive TUE protocol was not invented by USADA nor the NSAC, nor any commission or other Anti-Doping agencies such as VADA. It is a code by WADA for the simple logic that ANYTHING can happen to an athlete during the time of a competition. That is common sense. So if something would happen, a guideline must be enforced to adhere to the code, and in Mayweather's case, agents from USADA and as Kevin Iole reported in late May, urine samples (for EPO) were taken before and after. Keep in mind Pac and Floyd are on the Biological Passport clock so monitoring and testing is always enforced and a day later on May 2nd, both fighters provide blood and urine again.

Vitamins and saline are general practice for dehydrated IV patients. There's no such thing in medical practice to provide 50ml of a fluid bag per 6 hour period to rehydrate patients. That's like someone inflating a flat tire only 10% and continuing to drive. A baby infant of less than 5kg requires 200-400ml per 4 hour period. A 15 yr old of 50kg requires 2000ml per 4 hour period. A 50ml bag, which again - people read out of context information - is a bit funny. 50ml IV bags exist in general in the medical world because patients of any sort receive combinations of sources for whatever it is they need for any procedure, not just dehydration. Ever walk into a hospital and you'll see combinations of bags of different sizes...

So why would USADA need to ''deny'' general practice from the medical world? They don't need to play Hauser's game. Imagine a student failing an exam miserable with the Instructor correcting more than 95% of the failed answers yet the student says, ''well I at least got one right...'' and the Instructor says, ''writing your name on the exam doesn't give you any credit.''

Here are is the actual code from WADA:

If a non-prohibited substance is infused or injected without a concurrent hospital admission, surgical procedure or clinical investigation; a TUE must be submitted for this Prohibited Method if more than 50 mL of fluid per a 6-hour period is infused or injected.

If a Prohibited Substance is administered via IV infusion or injection a TUE
application must be submitted for the Prohibited Substance regardless of
whether the infusion is less than 50 mL or the setting/circumstances under
which it is administered. In situations of medical emergency or clinical time
constraints, a retroactive TUE application is acceptable (ISTUE 2015 article 4.3).

I won't assume I'm addressing an alt account created (hmmm...May 2015...coincidence?) after mistakes were made and TMT had to prepare themselves for damage control after it's found out weeks later they had to retroactively file for a TUE to cover their ass. No, I won't assume you're part of the damage control team tasked to "educate" the people if/when a ****storm arises from the revelation; so, nothing personal in this reply, okay? Ooops.

From everything I've read so far, the key issue with Floyd boils down to this TUE that was granted, and in his case, the RETROACTIVE TUE submitted weeks later.

Let me make an analogy based on my experience in processing medical claims in the insurance industry.

When a medical patient requires certain treatments that might not be covered by their insurance policy, they file a pre-authorization request for medical review & approval based on medical necessity. That's all done prior to the hospital admission to get the procedure done. This would be analogous to applying for a TUE prior to undergoing procedures regulated by WADA's code on prohibited substances/methods. For example, if a boxer truly suffers from Androgen Deficiency-Male Hypogonadism (one of the medical conditions listed on the website reviewable for TUE), a TUE could be granted to treat low testosterone.

When a patient has a medical emergency and seeks treatment in an out-of-area or out-of-network hospital (assuming they're on an HMO plan instead of PPO), a concurrent or retroactive review is done after the admission, to evaluate the medical necessity of the admission, to determine if it was a true medical emergency necessitating immediate treatment. The review is done after the fact. This would be analagous to applying for the retroactive TUE. It's done retroactively because there was urgency or medical necessity requiring the immediate treatment, and there was insufficient time to get pre-authorization. The key words here are "medical emergency." Was Floyd's TUE due to a medical emergency?

You talk about people "cherry picking," yet that is exactly what you've done here in your own attempt at "propaganda." You state, "Here are is the actual code from WADA:" and then proceed to cherry-pick only two paragraphs from the code without further elaboration, and leaving them out of context to the rest of the WADA code.

For anyone who wants to review the full code themselves, go to:

On that page, there's a download link for a pdf entitled "wada_medical_info_iv_infusions_4.0_en.pdf", or you can just enter this url to get the download:


As anyone can see, you copied/pasted the last two paragraphs under section "1. Introduction" with no further elaboration, and ignoring the rest of the sections of the code. We'll get to them later.

Now, the second paragraph you list from the code does not even apply in Floyd's case since the saline/vitamins is NOT a "Prohibited Substance." Curiously, that's the case where a retroactive TUE is acceptable. It makes sense because a prohibited substance may be introduced because of a true medical emergency.

The first paragraph you list says NOTHING about a retroactive TUE being acceptable; but a TUE is required by Floyd since it is a "Prohibited Method" because "more than 50 mL of fluid per a 6-hour period is infused." It's also inferred that the volume Floyd infused would have been acceptable IF it was during "a concurrent hospital admission, surgical procedure or clinical investigation," in which case a TUE is NOT required because there is an apparent medical emergency. But that wasn't Floyd's case, was it? No, he did it in the comfort of home. Thus, he broke WADA's code.

My guess is that they realized too late that they misinterpreted the code so they scrambled weeks later to get the TUE retroactively (and you were enlisted for damage control to "educate" us...LOL).

To be continued...I have to split this post because the system gave me an error message: "The text that you have entered is too long (10636 characters). Please shorten it to 10000 characters long."

[SamuraiSam]

I was educating so many people last night regarding this subject the rules are becoming 2nd nature. Let me elaborate the out of context malicious propaganda of what people like to enjoy and cherry pick.

The retroactive TUE protocol was not invented by USADA nor the NSAC, nor any commission or other Anti-Doping agencies such as VADA. It is a code by WADA for the simple logic that ANYTHING can happen to an athlete during the time of a competition. That is common sense. So if something would happen, a guideline must be enforced to adhere to the code, and in Mayweather's case, agents from USADA and as Kevin Iole reported in late May, urine samples (for EPO) were taken before and after. Keep in mind Pac and Floyd are on the Biological Passport clock so monitoring and testing is always enforced and a day later on May 2nd, both fighters provide blood and urine again.

Vitamins and saline are general practice for dehydrated IV patients. There's no such thing in medical practice to provide 50ml of a fluid bag per 6 hour period to rehydrate patients. That's like someone inflating a flat tire only 10% and continuing to drive. A baby infant of less than 5kg requires 200-400ml per 4 hour period. A 15 yr old of 50kg requires 2000ml per 4 hour period. A 50ml bag, which again - people read out of context information - is a bit funny. 50ml IV bags exist in general in the medical world because patients of any sort receive combinations of sources for whatever it is they need for any procedure, not just dehydration. Ever walk into a hospital and you'll see combinations of bags of different sizes...

So why would USADA need to ''deny'' general practice from the medical world? They don't need to play Hauser's game. Imagine a student failing an exam miserable with the Instructor correcting more than 95% of the failed answers yet the student says, ''well I at least got one right...'' and the Instructor says, ''writing your name on the exam doesn't give you any credit.''

Here are is the actual code from WADA:

If a non-prohibited substance is infused or injected without a concurrent hospital admission, surgical procedure or clinical investigation; a TUE must be submitted for this Prohibited Method if more than 50 mL of fluid per a 6-hour period is infused or injected.

If a Prohibited Substance is administered via IV infusion or injection a TUE
application must be submitted for the Prohibited Substance regardless of
whether the infusion is less than 50 mL or the setting/circumstances under
which it is administered. In situations of medical emergency or clinical time
constraints, a retroactive TUE application is acceptable (ISTUE 2015 article 4.3).

Continued:

Okay, now that everyone has the full WADA pdf to cross-reference, I can save time & space not having to copy/paste the relevant sections of the code here, and I can ask the following questions:

Relating to section "2. Diagnosis"

1. Does Floyd have a documented medical history of chronic dehydration necessitating medical intervention & IV infusion?
2. Who was the treating physician? (I don't think Memo & Ariza have medical degrees; and I doubt the USADA reps were licensed MDs.)
3. Is Floyd & the USADA willing to show the copy of the TUE application? If so & they have nothing to hide, will the application clearly show the precise description of the clinical situation & specific medical indication for the IV infusion; the name of the treating physician; the ICD-10 code E86.0 or E87.1; and all the other relevant medical information listed in sub-section C?
4. Why was oral rehydration not a valid option? What was the existing co-morbidity that ruled it out as an option?


Relating to section "3. Medical best practice treatment"

1. Was Floyd experiencing a medical emergency? (He obviously was not under inpatient care, in which case the volume he infused would not have required a TUE, retroactive or not.)
2. What is the supporting evidence that no alternative treatment (i.e.--drinking orally) could have been used?
3. Who was the ordering physician, and who were the qualified medical personnel to perform the treatment?
4. Why wasn't the infusion done in an appropriate medical setting instead of at home?

The following paragraph in this section is significantly telling:

The use of IV infusions in sport is commonly linked with rehydration after
exhaustive effort, and this situation is arguably the major cause of debate. It
must be understood that the use of IV fluid replacement following exercise to
correct mild to moderate dehydration is not clinically indicated nor substantiated
by the medical literature. There is a well-established body of scientific evidence
to confirm that oral rehydration is the preferred the****utic choice, potentially
even more effective than IV infusion.
(Ref: 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16)


Relating to section "5. Consequences to health if treatment withheld"

1. Was Floyd truly in a state of medical emergency, where serious harm or death would occur without immediate medical intervention with an infusion?

[If I recall correctly from video of his weigh-in, he was able to easily walk around unassisted. Some truly dehydrated fighters have to remain sitting, lacking the strength to stand, so much as walk around...and they might be candidates for IV infusions. And I assume he was orally re-hydrating too immediately after the weigh-in; he seems to always have a bottle of water when he's conducting interviews.]

2. Observing Floyd's physical demeanor during the weigh-in, we can accept he might have had "mild to moderate" dehydration. So it begs the question...what additional physical training did he do after the weigh-in and before going home that dehydrated him beyond a "mild to moderate" level, creating a medical emergency requiring an IV infusion?


The rest of the sections are self-explanatory.

Anyway, in conclusion, based on the IV infusion apparently not being a medical emergency (in which case there should have been a hospital admission, and over 50ml infusion allowable without a TUE), we can conclude that Floyd broke WADA code...and the IV was intended to mask or alter his biological blood values. And the USADA did not correctly uphold & enforce the WADA code, to which they are signatory. And I still question, if the story is true, why USADA would only take urine samples before and after observing a procedure that potentially affects blood values.

'Nuff said.

[SamuraiSam]

I would just like to add that the medical alternative must be a safer and more acceptable alternative. If such an alternative exists, there is no need to even consider the IV method. Case in point, IV vs Oral hydration.

Also, WADA didn't prohibit IV infusion due to masking alone, they also took into account the fighters safety. Having an IV infusion opens up the fighter to potential health risks (blood clotting, hematoma, infection, etc.). So in reality, not only is WADA protecting the integrity of the sport, it is also protecting the health of the fighter by prohibiting IV infusions for treatment of dehydration.

Therefore, there really is no point and no justification to choose an IV infusion over Oral hydration when the fighter is under no medical emergency. Especially when you consider that there is no scientific fact to back up any advantage an IV has over Oral and even more so when you couple that with the health risks involved with an IV. Which is why WADA was very clear on that medical emergency clause. And their logic is sound.

Lastly, if that wasn't enough, here's another tidbit that also shoots down the argument defending the 750ml IV rehydration that Froid undertook.



So as everyone can see, there was absolutely no logical and justifiable reason for Froid to get hooked up to a 750ml IV for treatment of dehydration. It just doesn't add up. What does add up is if he did it just so he could mask and flush something out. Then everything makes sense and the story becomes clear.

Well said.

[mathed]

Exactly. When Paramedics rush to your house, it is always an emergency situation and the only real purpose for them coming is to rush you quickly to the hospital.

But you know what the most ******ed thing out of all this is? Why does this "paramedic" thing just come out now? Not one of Team Froid ever mentioned about any paramedic before. Not Froid, not Ellerbe, not anyone on his team. Hell, not even Sr mentioned anything of the sort. Not to mention how impossible it is that there wouldn't be one leak about the "paramedic" story that ever came out before. The paramedic story was obviously FABRICATED.



LMAO first time I saw this video. So Team Froid was trying to play the IV infusion as something normal that fighters do when fighters get dehydrated. They also were blaming the blood tests along with the training on why Froid became weak and dehydrated. Really? Someone who has been training and fighting for this long still doesn't know how to handle and prepare against dehydration? Are they really this dumb to think that rational people will buy that? Even dumbass Ellerbe says it was nothing out of the ordinary.

Fast forward a few months later, and we now get a Paramedic added to their story to make it seem like an emergency case LMAO!!!!!!!!!! Not to mention that it's impossible to believe that not one of them remembered to mention that before, and it's even more hard to believe that there wasn't any news that leaked about a Paramedic rushing to his house LOL

It's called being guilty as a mofo and getting caught in a lie. Now comes the damage control, more lies and more deception. Forget all that, GUILTY as charged!!

Time to retire, legacy has already been tarnished, the truth is out there.....cheaters never win in the end.

[Jc8804]

Samaurisam just bodied tmt usada and the Floyd groupies..


Damnnnnn. You got knocked the FCK out

[Dean_Razorback]

Samaurisam just bodied tmt usada and the Floyd groupies..


Damnnnnn. You got knocked the FCK out

[DeadLikeMe]

All relevant authorities on the matter have already exonerated Floyd. You guys can keep on with the Pacturd kangaroo court all you want though. We know it is all you have left to cling onto.